* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:01] GOOD EVENING, [CALL TO ORDER] EVERYBODY. WE WILL CALL THIS NOVEMBER MEETING OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION TO ORDER AT 6:01 PM UH, THANK YOU EVERYBODY FOR BEING HERE. UH, IF I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ASK THE CLERK TO TAKE THE ROLL. SORRY. NO WORRIES. TESTING. PERFECT. COMMISSIONER BAUER HERE. COMMISSIONER MOSES. HERE. COMMISSIONER MCCURLEY. HERE. COMMISSIONER ESSON. HERE. COMMISSIONER WIMAN. ABSENT COMM. UH, VICE MAYOR CATER THOMPSON. ABSENT. CHAIR HOOPER. HERE WE HAVE A QUORUM. EXCELLENT. AND WITH THAT, UH, WE WILL MOVE [GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT] STRAIGHT INTO GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT. DURING THIS GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT. THE PUBLIC IS INVITED TO MAKE COMMENTS ON ITEMS OF PUBLIC INTERESTS THAT ARE WITHIN THE PLANNING COMMISSION'S, SUBJECT JURISDICTION, AND THAT ARE NOT LISTED ON THE CURRENT AGENDA. PUBLIC COMMENTS ARE LIMITED TO UP TO THREE MINUTES PER PERSON. DEPENDING ON THE NUMBER OF PERSONS WISHING TO ADDRESS THE PLANNING COMMISSION. TIME WILL BE ALLOCATED EQUAL SHARES TOTALING NO MORE THAN 15 MINUTES. UH, IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO MAKE PUBLIC COMMENT, PLEASE, UH, BRING YOUR SPEAKER CARD TO THE CLERK'S DESK. IS ANYONE HERE TO, OH, YOU MAY JUST PLEASE MAKE SURE TO GIVE HIM YOUR CARD. ONCE YOU'RE DONE. I'LL DO THAT. UM, I PRESS A BUTTON HERE OR SOMETHING. I GUESS I CAN HEAR MYSELF ALREADY. OKAY. IT'S DWAYNE BELLINGER HERE, AND, UH, BASICALLY READING OVER TONIGHT'S AGENDA. UM, I, I BASICALLY WANNA THANK YOU FOR ALL PUTTING YOUR EFFORTS IN, UH, TO TRY TO BRING OUR, UH, REGULATIONS HERE, PETALUMA INTO CONFORMITY WITH WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE, WHAT I CONSIDER THE SHILLS OF SACRAMENTO. UM, THE FIRST THING THAT ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE INTERESTED IN CLIMATE AND, UH, MAKING THIS PLANET LIVABLE FOR OUR GRANDCHILDREN DO WOULD BE TO END THE SUBSIDIES TO AUTOMOBILES, THE 2000 FEDERAL, THE 600 LOCAL. BUT, UH, YOU KNOW, WRITING RULES FOR DESIGNING THE CITY SO AS TO DISCOURAGE, TO ENCOURAGE, UM, THAT KIND OF, UH, UH, TO ENCOURAGE A CAR, UM, A A WALKING BICYCLE, UH, FA FAVORABLE, UH, SOCIETY WOULD BE WHAT YOU'RE HERE FOR, I HOPE. BUT MOST OF YOU'RE DEDICATED TO THAT. AND I, I WANNA CONGRATULATE YOU FOR BEING HERE. UM, I WOULD, UM, MENTION THAT READING IT, AND HOPEFULLY I MISSED IT. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING THAT'S LIKELY TO PRODUCE THE PEDESTRIAN ORIENTED COMMUNITY, A TRANSIT ORIENTED COMMUNITY AROUND THE STATION THAT WE JUST BROKE GROUND FOR WITHIN THE LAST, UH, TWO WEEKS. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN HERE THAT WOULD RESULT IN THERE BEING, UM, THE DEVELOPERS, UH, UH, FOR THE PROPERTY, JUST, UH, JUST NORTH OF THERE, UH, THE, WITHIN THE HALF MILE THAT THE STATE HAS ASKED US TO PLAN FOR. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING THAT ADDRESSES MAKING THAT INTO A ZERO CAR SUBURBIA, BICYCLES WALKING ONLY, RIGHT THERE AROUND THE NORTH END OF THE STATION. AND I DON'T SEE IT. SO I, I DIDN'T FIGURE I'D PROPERLY ADDRESS IT IN THE, UH, PLANNING SESSION BEING, IT'S, IT'S DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ADDRESSED AT ALL IN THE AGENDA. ANYWAY, HOPEFULLY I'M WRONG AND THAT ACTUALLY, THERE'S GONNA BE DISCUSSION OF THAT. BUT I DID WANNA BRING THAT UP AT THE START OF THE MEETING THAT I'M THINKING ABOUT HOW WE CAN BEST DESIGN OUR CITY THERE AT THE RUN THE RAIL STATION SO THAT PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITHOUT CARS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT LOVELY PUBLIC COMMENT. UH, SINCE I DON'T SEE ANYONE ELSE HERE TO GIVE PUBLIC COMMENT, WE WILL CLOSE GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT. UH, RIGHT NOW, WE'LL MOVE TO PRESENTATIONS. THERE ARE NO PRESENTATIONS DURING TODAY'S MEETING, WHICH YOU KNOW, IS A SHOCKER FOR EVERYONE. UH, I'LL CLOSE THIS AGENDA ITEM SINCE THERE IS NO AGENDA ITEM, AND I'LL MOVE ON TO APPROVAL OF [APPROVAL OF MINUTES] THE MINUTES. WE HAVE APPROVAL OF MINUTES FROM OUR NOTORIOUS OCTOBER 10TH MEETING. UH, DO I HAVE A MOTION FOR APPROVAL? I'LL MOVE TO APPROVE THE MINUTES. SECOND, UH, I WOULD ASK THE CLERK TO CALL THE ROLL. COMMISSIONER BAUER. YES. COMMISSIONER MOSES ABSTAIN. I WASN'T THERE FOR THAT ONE. COMMISSIONER MCCURLEY? YES. COMMISSIONER KUSON. YES. COMMISSIONER WIMAN. ABSENT VICE MAYOR CATER THOMPSON. ABSENT CHAIR HOOPER. YES, THE VOTE HAS PASSED. [00:05:01] THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AND NOW WE WILL MOVE [PUBLIC HEARINGS AND MATTERS FOR CONSIDERATION] TO OUR PUBLIC HEARING AND MATTERS OF CONSIDERATION. AND JUST AS A, A BRIEF POINT, WHICH MIGHT HELP EXPLAIN, UH, OR HELP PROVIDE AN ANSWER FOR THE PUBLIC COMMENT THAT WE, WE RECEIVED EARLIER. I KNOW WE TYPICALLY DON'T RESPOND, BUT THE, THE PRIMARY SUBJECT FOR TONIGHT'S MEETING, IT'S KIND OF, IT'S GOING TO BE A WORKING MEETING OF SORTS. IT'S, IT'S A WORKSHOP. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OUR PROPOSED OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. WE ARE NOT ONLY HEARING A LOVELY PRESENTATION FROM THE CITY AS TO THE DRAFT THAT WE'VE RECEIVED CURRENTLY, THAT'S GONE THROUGH, I BELIEVE, BOTH PAC AND TREE COMMITTEE. BUT ALSO WE ARE GIVING DIRECT FEEDBACK THAT STAFF IS GOING TO KIND OF HELP GUIDE US THROUGH THAT THEY NEED, AS THEY'RE STILL DEVELOPING THIS DRAFT OUT FOR COUNCIL AND THEIR OBJECTIVES. DESIGN STANDARDS JUST TO RESUMMARIZE REALLY FOCUSES ON THOSE INSTANCES WHERE A PROJECT IS NOT GONNA GO THROUGH STANDARD DISCRETIONARY REVIEW. NORMALLY, I WOULD NOT RESPOND IN THIS MUCH DETAIL, BUT SINCE WE ONLY HAVE A FEW FOLKS IN THE AUDIENCE, I FELT LIKE IT'S WORTH NOTING AND WE CAN HAVE A LITTLE EXTRA CUSTOMER SERVICE TONIGHT. SO THAT IN MIND, UM, I WILL NOW READ WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO READ ABOUT THIS ITEM. ITEM TWO, STUDY SESSION RECOMMENDATION TO THE CITY OF PETALUMA PLANNING COMMISSION TO RECEIVE AN INFORMATIONAL PRESENTATION BY PLANNING DIVISION STAFF, AND CONDUCT A STUDY SESSION TO SOLICIT INPUT AND PROVIDE NON-BINDING COMMENTS ON THE DRAFT OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS FOR QUALIFYING RESIDENTIAL PROJECTS. THE REQUESTED STUDY SESSION IS A DISCUSSION ITEM ONLY. NO ACTION WILL BE TAKEN AND NO CA FINDING IS REQUIRED TO BE MADE AT THIS TIME. UH, I WANTED TO, THIS, THIS ITEM IS NOT A PUBLIC HEARING AND DOES NOT REQUIRE ANYBODY, ANY OF THE COMMISSIONERS TO DISCLOSE ANY EX PARTE COMMUNICATIONS. BEFORE WE GET STARTED, I DID WANT TO JUST GIVE THE COMMISSION'S IDEA OF THE STRUCTURE FOR TONIGHT. UH, WE ARE GONNA HEAR THE PRESENTATION FROM HEATHER GERBERT, OUR SENIOR PLANNER. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE, UM, A BRIEF PERIOD OF DIRECT QUE WE'LL HAVE DIRECT QUESTIONS. FOLLOWING THAT, WE WILL THEN DO PUBLIC COMMENT AND THEN FOLLOWING PUBLIC COMMENT. UH, HEATHER IS GOING TO HELP US GO THROUGH POINT BY POINT. THERE'S ABOUT FIVE OR SIX AREAS WHERE STAFF IS REALLY ASKING FOR OUR DIRECT FEEDBACK AS THEY'RE DEVELOPING THIS DRAFT. SO WITH THAT, UH, I WOULD CALL OH, YES, ROGER, A QUESTION SO THAT AS WE GO THROUGH THE DOCUMENT, WE, WE ARE NOT GONNA ASK QUESTIONS ON A SUBJECT BY SUBJECT BASIS. WE'RE GONNA DO OVERALL QUESTIONS FOLLOWING THE PRESENTATION. SO IF YOU WANT, YOU CAN DO THE LINE ITEM OF YOUR QUESTIONS THEN, OR IF DURING THE DISCUSSION YOU WANT TO SAVE IT FOR THE, THE TOPIC BY TOPIC, THAT'S FINE TOO. I JUST WONDERED THAT WE'RE ALL GONNA BE LOOKING AT THE SAME MM-HMM. . SO IT MIGHT BE BETTER FOR ALL OF US TO COMMENT AS WE GO THROUGH IT VERSUS TRYING TO SUMMARIZE AT THE END, BECAUSE IT ADDRESSES ISSUES IN SEE, YOU KNOW, IN A CERTAIN SEQUENCE THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR THE, THE, UH, AUTHOR. RIGHT? SO OUR COMMENTS AS WE GO THROUGH IT WOULD BE MORE, I THINK, PRODUCTIVE THAN WAITING FOR SOME SUMMARY. YOU HAVE TO GO BACK THROUGH IT AGAIN. OH, RIGHT. NO, THIS WASN'T WAITING FOR A SUMMARY SO MUCH AS JUST GETTING FOLKS TO GET BACK AFTER HEARING, BECAUSE YOU'RE, THEORETICALLY, WE WANT TO DO THE WHOLE PRESENTATION TO GET THE WHOLE IMAGE OF WHAT IS BEING PRESENTED FOR BOTH US AND THE PUBLIC WATCHING. THEN AFTER THAT, WE'RE GONNA WANT TO DO QUESTIONS, BUT ALSO THIS IS DISCUSSIONS NOT A NIGHT WHERE WE'RE VOTING. SO BECAUSE STAFF NEED CLEAR FEEDBACK, THEY NEED IT BROKEN UP BY THE SUBJECTS THAT THEY'VE REQUESTED AS WE GO THROUGH IT. AS WE GO THROUGH IT. YEAH. SO, AND JUST TO, ON THAT NOTE, I WILL THEN CLARIFY IF FOLLOWING THE PRESENTATION, YOU CAN DO GENERAL QUESTIONS, ESPECIALLY LIKE DIRECT FEEDBACK QUESTIONS. WE WANT CLARIFICATION, WE CAN DO PUBLIC COMMENT, AND THEN AS WE GO SUBJECT BY SUBJECT, THEN THAT'S APPROPRIATE TIME. IF YOU'RE, IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS THAT CORRELATE OR IF IT'S JUST DISCUSSION, THAT'S FINE. BUT WE'LL DO A BIT OF BOTH FOR EACH ITEM, BECAUSE THAT'S A GREAT POINT, ROGER. AND WITH THAT, I WOULD ASK OUR SENIOR PLANNER, HEATHER, TO KICK US OFF. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. CHAIR HOOPER. GOOD EVENING PLANNING COMMISSIONERS. UM, THANK YOU FOR HAVING US TONIGHT TO DISCUSS, UM, THE DRAFT OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. AS NOTED, THIS IS A STUDY SESSION AND OUR INTENTION IS TO BRING THESE BACK, UM, WITH MODIFICATIONS AS NEEDED FOR ADOPTION, UM, OF A RECOMMENDATION TO COUNCIL [00:10:01] ON DECEMBER 12TH. AND WITH THAT, I'M GONNA GO AHEAD AND GET STARTED. AS A REMINDER, UM, THE OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS ARE IN RESPONSE TO SOME STATE LAWS THAT HAVE COME OUT IN RECENT YEARS. UM, MOST NOTABLY SB THREE 30 AND SB 35, BOTH OF WHICH LIMIT THE CITY'S ABILITY TO REVIEW PROJECTS, TO, UM, SPECIFICALLY USING OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. UM, IT DOES NOT REMOVE ANY EXISTING STANDARDS. IT DOESN'T CHANGE EXISTING STANDARDS. WHAT IT DOES IS ADD TO THOSE STANDARDS, UM, TO SUPPLEMENT WHAT IS TYPICALLY DONE THROUGH DISCRETIONARY PROCESSES. SO, UM, JUST SO THAT TONIGHT WE ARE ALL SPEAKING THE SAME LANGUAGE, I JUST WANNA GO OVER THESE KEY TERMS. SO MINISTERIAL REVIEW MEANS COMPLIANCE WITH OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. IF YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE YOUR TYPICAL BUILDING PERMIT, THERE'S VERY SPECIFIC OBJECTIVE NUMBERS IN THERE. THERE'S MEASUREMENTS THAT HAVE TO BE MET, THERE'S SIZES THAT HAVE TO BE MET, AND IT'S ALL OBJECTIVE, WHEREAS DISCRETIONARY REVIEW USES SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION. SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS OR SPECIFICALLY SPAR, UM, THOSE ARE DISCRETIONARY PROCESSES. OBJECTIVE REVIEW MEANS THAT IT'S LIMITED TO REVIEW BY OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS CLEAR AND IDENTIFIABLE AND THERE'S NO SUBJECTIVITY INVOLVED. I'M ALSO GOING TO USE THE PHRASE QUALIFYING RESIDENTIAL PROJECTS QUITE A BIT. AND THAT'S BECAUSE NOT ALL PROJECTS WILL QUALIFY TO GO THROUGH AN OBJECTIVE PROCESS. UM, IT'S ONLY IF THEY MEET CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS. AND TYPICALLY AT THIS POINT, IT RELATES SPECIFICALLY TO THE AMOUNT OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING INVOLVED IN A PROJECT THAT WOULD MAKE IT ELIGIBLE. SO AGAIN, THE CONTEXT IS THAT THESE OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS ARE NOT A STANDALONE THING. THEY WOULD BE INCORPORATED INTO THE IMPLEMENTING ZONING ORDINANCE, AND AGAIN, THEY BUILD ON THE EXISTING FRAMEWORK THAT ALL PROJECTS ARE SUBJECT TO. SO THE CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE, CAL GREEN, OTHER STATE REGULATIONS THAT MAY APPLY, UM, YOU KNOW, IN OUR MUNICIPAL CODE, THERE'S A BUILDING CODE, FIRE CODE, STORM WATER REGULATIONS, WATER CONSERVATION, ALL OF THOSE APPLY TO DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS AND WOULD CONTINUE TO APPLY AS LONG AS THEY'RE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. UM, THE SAME THING WITH WHAT'S IN OUR ZONING ORDINANCE. WE HAVE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS IN THERE FOR DEVELOPMENT, BUT THERE'S GAPS. UM, AND THOSE GAPS IN THE PAST HAVE TYPICALLY BEEN FILLED THROUGH THE SPAR PROCESS THROUGH DISCRETIONARY REVIEW. SO, UM, THIS, AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A COMPREHENSIVE PROCESS. AGAIN, IT'S, IT'S, WE'RE DOING SOMETHING SPECIFIC AND FOCUSED. UM, THERE'S A LOT OF LONG RANGE PLANNING ACTIVITIES THAT ARE HAPPENING. SPECIFICALLY A HUGE GENERAL PLAN UPDATE IS IN PROCESS. AND SO I KNOW YOU'RE EXCITED TO GET INTO SORT OF THE, THE BIGGER ISSUES. AND THAT'S DEFINITELY HAPPENING THROUGH THE GENERAL PLAN UPDATE. UM, THERE'S ALSO AN UPDATE TO THE PARKING ORDINANCE THAT'S PLANNED. UM, THERE'S A NEW TREE ORDINANCE THAT'S BEING, THAT'S BEING PREPARED. UM, THERE'S ALSO UPDATES TO THE BUILDING REACH CODE. THERE'S AN ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN AND PROCESS. AND RECENTLY, UM, WE JUST RELEASED A CLIMATE ACTION PLAN THAT'S ALSO BEING PREPARED. SO THESE ARE ALL GREATER PLANNING EFFORTS. AND AGAIN, AS THOSE MOVE FORWARD, OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS ARE A LIVING DOCUMENT THAT WILL CHANGE AND UPDATE AS CITY POLICY, UM, AS A WHOLE UPDATES. SO AS THE AREAS THAT LEAD THE POLICY AND THOSE DOCUMENTS APPLY, THAT'S HOW THAT WILL DRIVE CHANGES TO OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS AND AS WHAT'S NOT ON HERE, UM, THAT IS ALSO A FUTURE EFFORT. UM, THAT WAS RECENTLY BROUGHT UP. THERE'S ACTUALLY A PLAN THERE, THERE WILL BE A SPECIFIC PLAN FOR THE CORONA ROAD STATION. UM, AND I KNOW THERE WAS FUNDING FROM ABA TO DO THAT, BUT IT'S A, THAT'S ALSO A LONG TERM PROJECT. SO, SO THAT IS COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE AT SOME POINT, , BUT AGAIN, THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS EFFORT IS. SO, UM, OKAY, SO AGAIN, WE'RE FILLING GAPS HERE. THE, THE KEY THINGS IS THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT MAKING SURE THAT WHEN THERE'S STANDARDS, UM, FOR PUBLIC, THAT IT MAKES SENSE WITH THE CONNECTIVITY WITH THE PRIVATE, UM, [00:15:01] PROPERTY. UH, AGAIN, FILLING GAPS, AVOIDING DUPLICATION, UM, THAT CAN, THAT COULD LEAD TO INCONSISTENCY OR CONTRADICTORY REGULATIONS. UM, AND ALSO TRYING TO AVOID EXCESSIVE BURDEN, UM, ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING. SO, UM, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY TOOK INTO CONSIDERATION AS WELL. UM, AGAIN, A BIT OF MORE ABOUT, UH, PLANNING WHAT EVERYBODY IN THIS ROOM IS ACCUSTOMED OR NOT EVERY MAY, MAYBE NOT EVERYBODY, BUT EVERYBODY ON THE DAIS IS ACCUSTOMED TO, UM, IS THAT DISCRETIONARY PLANNING ENTITLEMENT REVIEW PROCESS. SO IF IT COMPLIES WITH THE STANDARDS, IF IT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU MAKE THE DISCRETIONARY FINDINGS, YOU GET THE PLANNING ENTITLEMENT. AND THEN ONCE THAT'S RECEIVED, THEN YOU GO THROUGH THE BUILDING DEPARTMENT AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT AND THE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT, AND THEN YOU GET TO ACTUALLY BREAK GROUND AND BUILD. SO, UM, YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THESE BEFORE AS WELL. THESE ARE THE DISCRETIONARY FINDINGS OF SPAR. I APOLOGIZE IF THEY'RE A LITTLE SMALL. I TRY TO SHRINK THEM DOWN. BUT AGAIN, THERE, IT'S, IT'S VERY SUBJECTIVE. IT'S, YOU KNOW, IS IT HARMONIOUS, THE PROPORTION, UM, OF THINGS, IS IT APPROPRIATE? THESE ARE ALL, AGAIN, DISCRETIONARY WORDS THAT HAVE BEEN USED TO GUIDE DESIGN, UM, IN THE NEW FRAMEWORK THAT WE'RE WORKING WITH, WHERE, AGAIN, A PROJECT CAN COME IN AND THEY, THEY CAN SHOW US THINGS AND SAY, HEY, YOU MIGHT LIKE THIS. BUT AGAIN, WITHOUT OBJECTIVE STANDARDS, THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE ANY MEANS TO, UM, BIND A PROJECT TO THOSE STANDARD WITH, TO ANY DESIGN REQUIREMENTS. SO, UM, IN THE OBJECTIVE PROCESS, IF THEY COMPLY WITH, THEY CAN CHECK THE BOXES, THEN THEY MOVE ON TO BUILDING REVIEW, FIRE REVIEW, PUBLIC WORKS, THEN THEY GET THEIR PERMIT AND THEY CAN GO TO CONSTRUCT. NOW YOU MAY BE ASKING WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY DON'T MEET THE STANDARDS? SO, UM, IN THAT SCENARIO, IF FOR SOME REASON THEY DID NOT COMPLY WITH OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS, UM, THEY WOULD HAVE TO EITHER REVISE THEIR PLANS TO COMPLY OR THEY COULD RESUBMIT FOR DISCRETIONARY REVIEW. SO THEY, THEY, THEY DO HAVE THAT OPTION. IT'S NOT THE IDEAL OF WHERE YOU WANT TO BE DOING, AND IT WOULD BE CREATING STANDARDS, FORCING THEM THAT WAY WOULD BE VERY CONTRADICTORY TO THE PURPOSE OF THE STATE LEGISLATION. SO, UM, WE WANT TO MAKE THEM ACHIEVABLE, AND THAT'S KEY. OKAY, SO OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. AGAIN, THERE WAS A PLANNING COMMISSION HEARING IN APRIL, 2021 WHERE THE FIVE GOALS WERE ESTABLISHED. UM, PLACES THAT REFLECT THE PETALUMA COMMUNITY, EMPHASIZING A PEDESTRIAN ORIENTED ENVIRONMENT, UM, SUPPORTING RESIDENTS AND WORKERS ACTIVITIES ACROSS AGE, ABILITY, CULTURE, RACE, GENDERED INCOME, SO EQUITY GOAL, UM, MULTIMODAL TRANSPORTATION CONNECTIONS AND SUPPORTING SUSTAINABLE BUILDING PRACTICES AND SITE DESIGN APPROACHES. UM, AND AGAIN, THE PURPOSE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT AGAIN, IT'S ACHIEVABLE TO, UM, ACHIEVABLE, IMPLEMENTABLE AND FEASIBLE, AND THAT IT'S ACHIEVING SATISFACTORY QUALITY OF DESIGN, UM, AND THAT THEY'RE APPROPRIATE FOR THE INTENDED USE AND THAT THEY'RE IN HARMONY WITH OTHER DEVELOPMENTS. SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE HERE. IF WE LOOK AT WHAT THE EXISTING, UM, REGULATIONS ARE AND THE FIVE GOALS, UM, I BROKE IT DOWN THIS WAY, SO YOU COULD KIND OF SEE LIKE OUR GOALS, AGAIN, THE CHARACTER, THE HUMAN SCALE EQUITY, VIKK AND PEDESTRIAN SUPPORT AND SUSTAINABILITY, ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT EXIST IN OUR CODE, ALL THESE DOCUMENTS THAT GENERAL PLANS, ZONING, ORDINANCE, THEY ALL CONTRIBUTE TO THAT. THEY ALL HAVE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS IN THERE THAT SUPPORT THOSE GOALS. O OR OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS ADDS TO THAT. AND IT'S BROKEN DOWN INTO, UM, SITE DESIGN AND BUILDING DESIGN. AND AGAIN, THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY COMPREHENSIVE SECTIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE FILLING GAPS THAT ARE NOT IN THE CODE. SO WE'RE TRYING TO ADD TO THAT. UM, AND WE HAVE, WHEN WE LOOK AT HOW WE ADDRESS THE FIVE GOALS WITH OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS, UM, YOU KNOW, OUR BUILDING ORIENTATION, THE CIRCULATION, AND THE ACCESS, YOU KNOW, OUR PARKING REQUIREMENTS, FENCING, SCREENING, LANDSCAPING, ALL THESE THINGS ARE ABOUT CHARACTER. UM, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THEM MEET MULTIPLE GOALS. SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW EVERYTHING IS PUT TOGETHER, WE'RE TRYING TO BE HOLISTIC ABOUT THAT. AND OKAY, SO [00:20:02] ANYTIME YOU'RE DOING POLICY, THERE'S STICKING POINTS AND THERE WERE, THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE HAVE ALREADY IDENTIFIED THAT ARE GONNA BE IMPORTANT TOPICS OF DISCUSSION. UM, SO, UH, VINYL'S A BIG ISSUE THAT HAS COME UP. UM, THERE'S CONCERNS ABOUT, ONE, IT'S AESTHETIC VALUE AS WELL AS, UM, THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS AND THE RESULT OF, OF WHAT COMES THROUGH THAT, UM, AS A MATERIAL. SO THERE'S A, UM, IT WAS RECOMMENDED AS, AS SOMETHING TO BE PROHIBITED. UM, THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING COMMUNITY HAS, UM, EXPRESSED CONCERN THAT THAT IS A VERY AFFORDABLE MATERIAL AND REMOVING THAT FROM ONE OF THEIR TOOLS WOULD SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THE COST OF CONSTRUCTION. SO THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE REALLY GOING TO LOOK FOR DIRECTION FROM THE PLANNING COMMISSION ON. UM, ANOTHER THING THAT CAME UP IS WINDOW DESIGN. SO, UM, THE, I'LL, WE'LL GET INTO THIS A LITTLE BIT MORE. I HAVE A SLIDE ON THIS, BUT THERE'S A RECOMMENDATION FOR, UM, HOW WINDOWS SHOULD BE PLACED SPECIFICALLY ON, UM, PLASTER OR FLAT, SMOOTH SURFACE WALLS, UM, THAT THEY SHOULD BE INSET AND THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY TRIM BEYOND A SILL. UM, SO THAT'S ANOTHER TOPIC WE'RE LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK ON TREES ARE ALWAYS EXCITING. UM, TREES SPECIFICALLY IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT STREET TREES, THAT FALLS UNDER THE PUBLIC WORK STREET TREE STANDARDS BECAUSE IT'S PART OF THE PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE. SO IT'S UNDER THE CITY'S STANDARDS FOR DEVELOPMENT. AND, UM, WE ARE NOT UPDATING THOSE THROUGH THIS PROCESS. THERE'S DEFINITELY RECOGNITION FROM THE TREE COMMITTEE AND PBAC THAT THOSE NEED TO BE UPDATED, BUT THEY'RE NOT UPDATED THROUGH OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. AND TRYING TO DO THAT THROUGH THIS PROCESS WOULD POTENTIALLY RESULT IN CONFLICTS IN THE FUTURE AND WOULD BE VERY MESSY. SO WE DIDN'T, WE'RE NOT DOING THAT HERE. UM, BUT TREES, THERE ARE THE TREE STANDARDS WE HAVE CAME OUT OF SPAR AND ARE INTENDED TO APPLY TO, UM, WHAT'S ON PRIVATE PROPERTY, NOT ON THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. BIKE PARKING IS ALSO A, UM, AREA THAT HAS HAD A LOT OF DISCUSSION. UM, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE EXPRESS THAT THERE'S CONCERN THAT THE WAY THAT PARKING IS SET UP IN THE STANDARDS, THAT IT MAY BE, UM, PROBLEMATIC. AND I'M GONNA RESERVE MY TALK ABOUT WHAT'S IN BIKE PARKING TILL WE GET THERE. UM, AND THEN THE OTHER ISSUE THAT CAME UP, UM, THAT THERE WAS CONCERN ABOUT INTEGRATIVE PEST MANAGEMENT, UM, THAT THAT COULD BE TOO NEBULOUS FOR SOME OF THE PROJECTS, BUT I'VE LEFT IT INTO THE STANDARDS BECAUSE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR REDUCING CHEMICAL USAGE AND, UM, THAT'S SOMETHING IMPORTANT. SO, OKAY, SO WALKING THROUGH THESE, UM, STARTING WITH SITE DESIGN, UM, THE BUILDING ORIENTATION IS, UH, THE FIRST THING IT COULD COME TO. AND THE SECTION IS REALLY ABOUT TRYING TO ORIENT TOWARD THE PUBLIC STREET TOWARD THE PRIMARY FRONTAGE, MAKING SURE THERE'S AN ENTRANCE AND HAVING AT LEAST ONE GROUND FLOOR ACTIVATING, STR ACTIVATING STRATEGY ON, UM, THAT FRONTAGE SO THAT IT'S ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO USE THE STREET. UM, SO THAT IS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS IN THERE. UM, AND THEN WE MOVE INTO CIRCULATION. SO, UM, LOOKING AT THE, UH, PEDESTRIAN AND BICYCLE NETWORKS INTERNALLY. SO MAKING SURE THAT IF THERE ARE MULTIPLE BUILDINGS, THAT PEOPLE HAVE A MEANS TO ACCESS THE PUBLIC SIDEWALK WITHOUT HAVING TO WALK ACROSS DRIVEWAYS OR PARKING LOT WHERE THERE'S NO PLACE FOR THEM TO GO. UM, AND ALSO PROVIDING AMPLE CROSSWALKS SO THAT THEY CAN SAFELY MOVE WITHIN THE DEVELOPMENT. AND, UM, THE OTHER THING THAT WE ADDED IN HERE AS WELL IS, UM, LOADING AND UNLOADING. SO RECOGNIZING THAT PARTICULARLY IF YOU HAVE AGE RESTRICTED DEVELOPMENTS, AND ALSO JUST ANY DEVELOPMENT NOW, THERE'S A LOT OF HOME DELIVERIES, UM, AND SERVICES WHERE PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING THINGS. SO THERE'S A NEED FOR A LOADING ZONE THAT PROVIDES ACCESS. UM, SO THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE SOME OF THE KEY THINGS THAT YOU'LL SEE IN THE CIRCULATION ELEMENTS. UM, AND WHEN WE GET INTO, AND LET ME JUST FLIP PAGES HERE. OKAY. [00:25:01] UM, SO PARKING STANDARDS, AND I KNOW THERE WERE A COUPLE QUESTIONS HERE, SO I EXPECT WE'LL HAVE SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT LOCATION OF PARKING. UM, SO THE IDEA IS TO NOT HAVE PARKING BE THE PRIMARY THING THAT PEOPLE ARE CONSTANTLY SEEING WITH THE BUILDING IN THE BACK OF PARKING IN THE FRONT. SO WE DO HAVE THE REQUIREMENT TO PUT, UM, PARKING IN THE BACK OF THE BUILDING. UM, SO IT'S NOT BETWEEN THE BUILDING AND THE PRIMARY, UM, FRONTAGE. UM, ADDITIONALLY THERE'S REQUIRED LANDSCAPING IN HERE AS WELL. AND SO, UM, INSTEAD OF HAVING WHAT IS IN SPAR BASED ON RECOMMENDATIONS THAT CAME FROM STAKEHOLDERS, WE DID REVISE THIS. SO INSTEAD OF THE, LIKE, YOU MUST HAVE A LANDSCAPING STRIP ONE EVERY SIX SPACES, WE SAID YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HUNDRED SQUARE FEET OF LANDSCAPING. AND HOW IT'S DISTRIBUTED IS, IS OKAY, AS LONG AS IT'S NOT SMALLER, THEN THAT, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS YOU'RE NOT CHUNKING IT UP INTO LITTLE PIECES. UM, AND SO IT DOES ALLOW FOR A DIFFERENT LANDSCAPE DESIGN THAT COULD POTENTIALLY PROVIDE, UM, MORE GREEN SPACE AND MORE USEFUL GREEN SPACE. AND, UM, WE ALSO REVISED, INSTEAD OF SAYING YOU MUST HAVE ONE TREE FOR EVERY A HUNDRED SQUARE FEET, UM, WE GOT A LOT OF FEEDBACK AT PBA AND TREE COMMITTEE THAT, UM, THEY WOULD LIKE IT TO BE MORE ABOUT SHADING. SO WE REVISED SO THAT THE, UM, THE REQUIREMENT IS FOR 50% SHADING AT MATURITY AND A PUBLIC COMMENT FROM BILL REINHARDT PROVIDED SOME USEFUL RECOMMENDED LANGUAGE THAT I'LL INCLUDE INTO AN UPDATE THERE TO CLARIFY WHERE THE SIZE OF THE CANOPY COMES FROM. SO, UM, THERE'S THAT, AND AS WELL AS, UM, PARKING LOT SHADING. THE OPTION IS THERE, UM, TO REPLACE 50% UP TO 50% OF THE TREE SHADING REQUIRED WITH SOLAR PANELS, UM, A SOLAR PANEL CARPORT. UM, AND I KNOW THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT AS WELL THAT WE CAN FURTHER DISCUSS THAT IS, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, A SUBJECTIVE NUMBER THAT CAME OUT. SO YOU CAN TELL ME IF YOU'D LIKE TO PICK A DIFFERENT NUMBER PERCENTAGE. SO WE'RE HAPPY TO HAVE THAT FEEDBACK. OKAY. SO BY BICYCLE PARKING. SO THESE STANDARDS, UM, WHAT HAPPENED IS BECAUSE WE'RE WORKING ON SORT OF THIS COMPREHENSIVE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN, THAT'S GONNA BE PART OF THE GENERAL PLAN AS WELL. UM, IT, PRIOR TO MY ACTUALLY GETTING ONTO THE PROJECT, OUR TEAM REACHED OUT TO PUBLIC WORKS AND BJORN, UM, GRUENBERG, AND HE AND MATT GOING FROM, UM, FERRUM PEERS WORKED ON THIS SECTION AND ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER THE STANDARDS. AND THEN, UM, THAT'S KIND OF, I, I DIDN'T REALLY DO MUCH TO THEM. I DID A LITTLE TEXT EDITING, BUT, UH, THAT'S WHERE THEY WERE AT. UM, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF CONCERN, UM, FROM INDIVIDUALS ABOUT THE STYLE OF BIKE RACK BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH SPACE REQUIRED FOR EACH BIKE, BICYCLE PARKING SPACE. UM, AND I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE IS THAT THE IDEA OF OF THESE SPACES IS TO MAKE SURE THERE'S SUFFICIENT ROOM FOR PEOPLE TO, OF, OF ALL ABILITIES TO ACCESS THEIR BIKE. AND ALSO RECOGNIZING THAT E-BIKES ARE A CRITICAL FORM OF TRANSPORTATION FOR, PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD A VEHICLE. AND THAT WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO USE E-BIKES INSTEAD OF VEHICLES. UM, AND THAT THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU HAVE BIKE PARKING THAT WILL SUPPORT AN E-BIKE. UM, SO HAVING THEM HAVE TO BE LIFTED UP, UM, E-BIKES ARE FREQUENTLY VERY HEAVY, AND SO THEY MAY NOT BE, THAT MIGHT NOT BE SOMETHING ACCESSIBLE FOR ALL PEOPLE TO USE. AND THAT WAS ANOTHER PIECE THAT, THAT CAME INTO THAT DISCUSSION. SO I'M HAPPY TO DISCUSS THESE WITH YOU, BUT I THINK THE, WHAT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THIS IS THE DIRECTION THAT CITY POLICY IS GOING. AND WHILE WE'RE NOT TRYING TO MOVE POLICY FORWARD WITH OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS, BECAUSE THIS IS HOUSING THAT'S MOSTLY FOR LOW INCOME PEOPLE, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'RE ALSO PROVIDING ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS. SO, UM, THAT IS WHY THAT'S FAIR, . OKAY, MOVING ON TO FENCING. UM, NOW WE'RE GETTING INTO THE REALLY FUN STUFF. I HOPE YOU GUYS ARE HAVING A GOOD TIME. OKAY. . ALL RIGHT, FENCING. SO, UH, THERE'S NO MATERIALS PROHIBITION IN THE PETALUMA CODE [00:30:01] AND IT'S CHAIN LINK. CHAIN LINK IS NOT AN AESTHETIC MATERIAL. UM, NEITHER IS RAZOR WIRE. AND THIS IS NOT A PETALUMA PICTURE, JUST FOR THE RECORD, THIS'S ACTUALLY FROM OAKLAND. UM, AND I SAW IT AND I WAS LIKE, OH, PERFECT. IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE DON'T WANT. SO, UM, IT'S A REALLY NICE LOOKING BUILDING THAT IS CLEARLY, UM, MULTIFAMILY HOUSING, AND THEN THERE'S THIS CHAIN LINK FENCE. IT'S LIKE, UM, SO THERE IS A PROHIBITION THERE. UM, ADDITIONALLY, UH, THE IDEA BETWEEN THE FENCING STANDARDS IS TO PREVENT LONG BLANK WALL SURFACES THAT HAVE NO AESTHETIC VALUE. AND SO THE MEANS OF ACHIEVING THAT, UM, ARE TO, UH, CREATE, WERE TO CREATE SOME STANDARDS AROUND, UM, REQUIRING SOME VARIATION IN THE SURFACE. I WANNA POINT OUT, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT THE LANDSCAPING AS PART OF THE FENCING. I I'VE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH ON THIS RIGHT NOW. ONE OF THE OPTIONS IS TO DO A LANDSCAPE SCREEN, BUT AS YOU CAN SEE FROM A LOT OF THE PICTURES THAT, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THAT LANDSCAPE SCREEN THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THERE IS NOT, AND SOMETIMES IT'S BECAUSE IT SIMPLY ISN'T MAINTAINED. SOMETIMES THE IRRIGATION IS INSUFFICIENT, PLANTS DIE OFF, THE WRONG PLANTS ARE PLANTED, UM, YOU KNOW, OR IT COULD BE, UM, IN SOME CASES THAT THERE'S PESTS THAT HAVE INFESTED THE LANDSCAPING AND IT'S BEEN REMOVED TO REMOVE THE PESTS. SO, UM, I THINK I'D LIKE SOME FEEDBACK ON WHETHER, UM, LANDSCAPING IS SUFFICIENT ON ITS OWN OR WHETHER WE WANT TO CONSIDER AN AESTHETIC, UM, BEYOND THAT, SUCH AS, YOU KNOW, WOODEN FENCE WITH SOME VARIATION OR, UM, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE. SO SCREENING, UM, AGAIN, THERE'S, THERE'S SOME DISCUSSION OF LIKE WHEN SCREENING IS REQUIRED, BUT THERE'S NO SPECIFIC STANDARD FOR IT. SO WE HAVE INCLUDED, UM, THE REQUIREMENT TO SCREEN BOTH ROOFTOP AND GROUND LEVEL EQUIPMENT. AND THESE SPECIFICS I ACTUALLY FOUND IN ANOTHER CODE, BUT TO BE HONEST, I CAN'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD WHICH ONE. SO THAT'S HOW I CAME UP WITH THE SPECIFIC, UM, LOCATIONS OF THOSE. UM, SO IT'S SCREENING, OKAY, LANDSCAPING, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WHEN WE TALK ABOUT LANDSCAPING, THAT THERE'S A LOT OF UNDERLYING REGULATION INVOLVED. SO THE WATER EFFICIENT LANDSCAPING ORDINANCE, WHICH IS IN THE MUNICIPAL CODE, UM, HAS A LOT OF REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE ALREADY IN THERE ABOUT HOW YOU CAN USE LANDSCAPING. SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE 10% CAN ONLY BE GRAVEL REQUIREMENT IS ACTUALLY IN THE WELLOW, IN THE CITY'S WELLOW ALREADY. SO, UM, THEY, THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT. AND THEN STORM WATER REGULATIONS ALSO HAVE, ARE REALLY IMPORTANT IN THIS TOPIC BECAUSE THERE'S REQUIREMENTS FOR ONSITE INFILTRATION. SO PERVIOUS SURFACES WHERE THE WA STORM WATER WILL GO IN AS OPPOSED TO RUNNING OFF INTO STORM DRAINS AND EVENTUALLY INTO THE RIVER. SO THE, UM, THESE ARE EXISTING THINGS THAT ARE GONNA SET REQUIREMENTS ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE THERE. AND THEN ALSO IN THE LAND USE TABLES, TABLE NUMBER, AND IN CHAPTER FOUR OF THE LAND USE, BLAH, LAND USE TABLES IN THE IMPLEMENTING ZONING ORDINANCE, UM, THERE ARE OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENTS ABOUT HOW MUCH OPEN SPACE HAS TO BE, UM, ON EACH LOT. SO THOSE ARE SORT OF THE UNDERLYING CONTEXT. SO WHAT WE DID FROM THERE IS WE SAID, ALL RIGHT, THIS IS THE UNDERLYING CONTEXT. WHAT DO WE NEED TO INCLUDE? AND SOME OF THOSE STANDARDS, UM, THAT WE INCLUDED, UM, WAS ONE, THIS DISCUSSION OF, UM, NOT OF LIMITING WHAT KIND OF PLANTS ARE ALLOWABLE. SO IN SOME AREAS WE SPECIFICALLY, UM, SAID, YOU KNOW, MUST BE A NATIVE PLANT AS DESIGNATED BY CALIFORNIA NATIVE PLANT SOCIETY ON THEIR CAL SCAPE WEBSITE. UM, AND WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD PUSHBACK ON THAT. AND THEN WE'VE HAD OTHER PUBLIC COMMENTS THAT ARE LIKE, NO, YOU SHOULD PUT THAT ON ALL PROJECT, ALL PROJECT LANDSCAPING EVERYWHERE, . SO AGAIN, FEEDBACK ON THE NATIVE PLANTS WOULD BE WONDERFUL AS WE'RE MOVING FORWARD. UM, AND THEN THE OTHER THING IS PLACEMENT. SO LOCATION, UM, AND THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT AS TO, UM, WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE PLANTING REQUIRED IN THE FRONT SETBACK. AND, UM, PLANTING ON THE FRONT SETBACK PROVIDES THAT SOFTENING OF THE BUILDING FRONT TO KIND OF CREATE A NATURAL BUFFER THAT, YOU KNOW, AS YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE BUILDINGS, UM, IT CREATES SOME SPACE [00:35:01] AND WE LIMITED IT TO 50%. THE IDEA BEING THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO PUT OTHER THINGS IN THE SETBACK SUCH AS AN A DA RAMP, WHICH IS ILLUSTRATED HERE. SO, UM, MAYBE NOT EXACTLY TO SCALE, BUT IT'S THERE IT IS. UM, AND THEN WE TALK ABOUT TREES. SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE PULLED OVER FROM THE SPAR CHECKLIST WAS THE REQUIREMENT OF ONE TREE FOR EVERY 500 SQUARE FEET OF OPEN SPACE. UM, AND THEN ALSO REQUIREMENTS FOR THOSE TREES IF THEY'RE ADJACENT TO THE PAVEMENT, TO TRY AND PROTECT THE LONGEVITY OF THE PAVEMENT. AND ALSO, UM, TO ENSURE THAT IF THEY ARE PLANTED NEAR A POWER LINE, THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO INTERFERE WITH THE POWER LINES, UM, BY PLANTING A TREE THAT'S SHORTER. AND THESE ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN IF YOU KNOW YOU HAVE THE CONFLICT, BUT AGAIN, FEEDBACK ON THAT WILL BE VERY WELCOME. UM, AND THEN, UH, COMMON USABLE OPEN SPACE. SO IN THE LAND USE TABLES, IT RECOMMENDS THAT A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE, UH, OR I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY THIS AMOUNT OF 25 SQUARE FEET PER UNIT BE USED FOR COMMON, BUT IT'S ONLY LIKE ENCOURAGED. SO WE CODIFIED THAT IN ODS TO SAY, UM, THAT YOU SHALL HAVE AT LEAST 25 SQUARE FEET OF COMMON USABLE OPEN SPACE PER UNIT, AND THEN IT MUST HAVE A MINIMUM OF 10 FEET BY 10 FEET. UM, NOW IF YOU ARE ONLY THREE UNITS AND YOU HAPPEN TO FALL UNDER THIS, UM, WHICH IS REALLY QUESTIONABLE IF YOU WOULD OR WOULDN'T, BUT, UM, THEN YEAH, YOU'D HAVE TO PUT IN AN EXTRA 25 SQUARE FEET OF OPEN SPACE TO MEET THAT CRITERIA. SO YOU MIGHT BE OUT 25 SQUARE FEET. UM, OKAY, SO LET'S SEE. ALL RIGHT, MOVING THROUGH HERE. I GOT ALL THESE KEY THINGS. OKAY, AND ANOTHER TOPIC, ACTUALLY, I DON'T HAVE A SLIDE FOR IT BEFORE WE GET TO LIGHTING, UM, IS THE QUESTION OF ARTIFICIAL TURF. SO, UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS IN THE CODE RIGHT NOW WOULD BE A PROHIBITION OF ARTIFICIAL TURF EXCEPT FOR SPORTS FIELDS. UM, AND AGAIN, I'VE HAD SOME PEOPLE SAY, NO, IT SHOULD PROHIBIT ALL ARTIFICIAL TURF REGARDLESS. AND I'VE HAD SOME PEOPLE SAY, LIKE, DON'T PROHIBIT AT ALL, AND BACK AND FORTH. SO AGAIN, THAT WOULD BE AN AREA WE'D LIKE TO HAVE SOME FEEDBACK ON. AND HERE WE GO. OKAY, SO, OKAY, LIGHTING. OKAY, HERE WE GO. UM, SO LOCATION, UM, WHERE LIGHTING'S REQUIRE, BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE IN THE CODE. AND THEN, UM, LIGHTING HAS CHANGED A LOT IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED THAT LEDS HAVE PRETTY MUCH REVOLUTIONIZED HOW WE DO LIGHTING. AND SO IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT, UM, THE BRIGHTNESS AND THE HEIGHT AS WELL AS THE COLOR TEMPERATURE. SO THIS DOES CONSIDER ALL THREE OF THOSE AND PROVIDE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. UM, AND SO, UM, THAT'S WHAT'S IN HERE IS INTENDED TO ENSURE GOOD LIGHTING . UM, AND THEN SO PARCELS FRONTING THE, UM, PETALUMA RIVERS AND CREEKS, THERE IS A, UM, RIVER ENHANCEMENT AND ACCESS PLAN. UH, AND MOST OF IT HA IS, IS A SHOULD. SO WE DID ADD SOME STANDARDS IN THAT ARE REALLY AROUND MAKING SURE THAT THERE IS PUBLIC ACCESS TO THE RIVER, AND THAT IF RIVERFRONT PROPERTIES ARE DEVELOPED, THAT PATHWAYS ALONG THAT PROPERTY ARE ALSO DEVELOPED AND THAT ACCESS TO THOSE PATHWAYS ARE DEVELOPED IF THEY'RE NOT CONTIGUOUS WITH OTHER PATHWAYS. UM, SO THAT'S WHAT'S IN THERE AND THAT WHAT APPLIES TO THAT ARE THE PARCELS WHERE IF THEY ARE IDENTIFIED ON THIS GENERAL PLAN MAP THAT WE'RE SHOWING, WHICH IS THE PROPOSED AND EXISTING BICYCLE FACILITIES, WHICH WILL BE UPDATED IN THE NEXT PLAN. UM, SO IF THERE'S A PROPOSED PATHWAY, THEN THEY WOULD NEED TO BUILD THAT PATHWAY. IF A PATHWAY IS NOT PROPOSED, IT WOULDN'T BE REQUIRED. UM, AND THE CLASSES ARE ACTUALLY ON THE MAP AS WELL. SO THE IDEA IS YOU HAVE TO IMPLEMENT THE MAP. AND, UM, OKAY. AND NOW THE FUN STUFF, AND WE ARE ONTO BUILDING DESIGN, UM, SECTION E, AND THIS IS KIND OF WHERE THERE WAS VERY LITTLE GUIDANCE. WE DON'T HAVE A, WE DON'T HAVE DESIGN GUIDELINES, SO A LOT OF MUNICIPALITIES WILL HAVE DESIGN GUIDELINES, AND WE DIDN'T HAVE THOSE TO BE ABLE TO [00:40:01] LIKE, OKAY, WE'LL JUST TAKE THE DESIGN GUIDELINES AND CODIFY THEM. UM, SO WE HAD SOME INITIAL ONES THAT WE WORKED ON, AND WE GOT RESPONSE FROM MEMBERS OF THE DESIGN COMMUNITY AND STAKEHOLDERS THAT THEY WERE NOT FUNCTIONAL. SO, UM, WE SAID, OKAY, WELL LET'S FIGURE SOMETHING OUT. AND THEY PROVIDED SOME FEEDBACK, AND THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT NOW, IS THIS NEW VERSION. AND ESSENTIALLY IT'S A CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE HERE. WE WANNA ALLOW FLEXIBILITY, WE WANNA ALLOW CREATIVITY, BUT WE ALSO WANT TO ENSURE THAT DESIGN IS HAPPENING. SO, UM, ESSENTIALLY IT'S ON THE PRIMARY FRONTAGE OR THE PRIMARY FACADE. THERE NEEDS TO BE A CHANGE OF PLANE REPRESENTING 30% OF THE SURFACE. SO IF YOU HAVE A, UM, A HUNDRED FOOT WIDE BUILDING THAT'S A HUNDRED FEET TALL, WHICH YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE HERE, UM, , BUT YOU HAVE A THOUSAND SQUARE FEET, THEN 300 SQUARE FEET OF THAT WALL WOULD HAVE TO BE PROJECTING OR SETBACK AS, AS YOU SEE IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS. AND OR NOT PROJECTING NECESSARILY, BUT THERE'S SEVEN DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU CAN ACHIEVE THAT. UM, AND THERE HAS TO BE A COMBINATION OF THREE. SO AGAIN, IT'S CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE. UM, SORRY, SIX. AND YOU CHOOSE THREE? NO, SORRY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE THREE, YOU JUST HAVE TO DO 30%. SORRY. I, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO ONE MEANS IS THROUGH PROJECTING OR RECESSED BALCONIES. SO, UM, AS YOU CAN SEE, PROJECTING RECESSED BALCONIES. UM, ANOTHER OPTION WOULD BE TO AGAIN, ACHIEVE THAT 30% IS BOXER BAY, WINDOWS, AND, UM, GROUND FLOOR COURTYARDS. SO IS ANOTHER OPTION. SO AGAIN, YOU HAVE THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING, YOU HAVE A SETBACK AND DOOR, UM, STEP BACKS OR PROJECTIONS IS ANOTHER OPTION. AND, UM, FRONT PORCHES CAN ALSO BE USED. AND A COLON AID OR COVERED WALKWAY IS ANOTHER OPTION. SO THESE ARE DIFFERENT, UM, MEANS OF ACHIEVING, AND AGAIN, YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE 30%. IGNORE WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE THREE, I WAS, MY BRAIN WENT BACK IN TIME, . OKAY, SO THE, UM, STREET LEVEL TRANSPARENCY, UM, IS ANOTHER REQUIREMENT. YOU'LL HEAR PEOPLE TALK A LOT ABOUT EYES ON THE STREET. AND AGAIN, THAT'S ABOUT CREATING THAT CONTINUITY BETWEEN THE PUBLIC REALM AND THE PRIVATE REALM AND MAKING SURE THAT YOU'RE NOT JUST HAVING THESE DEVELOPMENTS WHERE YOU END UP WITH THE NO MAN'S LAND OF THE STREET. AND SO THE IDEA IS THAT 25%, UM, WOULD NEED TO BE TRANSPARENT. IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY NEED TO BE ALL THE PUBLIC SECTION OF THE BUILDING, BUT 25% OF THE LINEAR FRONTAGE HAS TO BE WINDOWS. AGAIN, NOT TO SCALE, BUT, UM, I HOPE THIS GIVES YOU KIND OF A CHALKBOARD IDEA OF WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE. AND HERE WE GO, TIME TALK ABOUT WINDOWS. SO AGAIN, THIS CAME UP AS, UM, THE STANDARD AS RECOMMENDED WAS THAT WINDOWS AND STUCCO, WHETHER CEMENT, PLASTER OR EIFS MUST BE RECESSED A MINIMUM OF TWO INCHES AND SHALL NOT BE TRIMMED OUT OTHER THAN HAVING A PROJECTING SILL. UM, AND SO YOU KIND OF SEE A FEW EXAMPLES. I'VE BEEN, UM, LOOKING AT A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF THIS AND TRYING TO KIND OF GET A SENSE OF LIKE, WHAT IS THE, THE VALUE HERE? AND AGAIN, IT'S A STYLISTIC THING. UM, MY CONCERN IS I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF BUILDINGS THAT ARE TRIMMED OUT ON PLASTER. AND I, AGAIN, MAYBE IT'S, IT'S SUBJECTIVE HERE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, BUT AGAIN, I ACTUALLY KIND OF LIKE IT IS MY OPINION . SO, UM, IT MAY NOT BE CONSIDERED THE IDEAL FOR DESIGN, BUT, OR, YOU KNOW, UM, BUT IT DOES HAVE AN ADDITIVE VALUE IN, IN MY OPINION. SO I FELT LIKE I, I WAS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH LIKE SAYING YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY TRIM ON A STRAIGHT FRONT. 'CAUSE I THINK THAT IT'S, I DON'T KNOW, I FELT LIKE IT WAS A LITTLE TOO SUBJECTIVE THERE, BUT IT CAN BE ADDED BACK IN IF THAT'S SOMETHING THE COMMISSION WOULD LIKE TO DO. UM, AND THEN THE OTHER ONE THAT WAS LEFT OUT IS THAT IF FIBERGLASS WINDOWS ARE USED, THE COLOR WHITE IS NOT ALLOWED, AND THERE'S A LOT OF WHITE FRAMED WINDOWS. AND IF THE COMMISSION DECIDES TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE PROHIBITION ON VINYLS, SO YOU'RE NOW TELLING THEM THEY CAN'T USE A LESS EXPENSIVE MATERIAL, AND THEN YOU'RE SAYING IT HAS TO BE A CERTAIN COLOR. SO I, I JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW YOU, IF YOU, AGAIN, THESE CAN BE ADDED, HAPPY TO DO THAT. UM, BUT [00:45:01] I HAD LEFT THEM OUT. UM, THIS IS IN THERE WINDOW SHADING. SO THE IDEA IS THAT YOU'RE PROVIDING SHADE THAT WILL REDUCE ENERGY USAGE BY REDUCING THE SUN COMING IN. UM, I STILL WOULD LIKE TO MAYBE TIGHTEN THIS ONE UP A LITTLE BIT IN TERMS OF THE LEVEL OF OBJECTIVITY WITH IT, BECAUSE AT THIS POINT AS WRITTEN, IT'S, IT'S ALL WINDOWS ON THE SIDE AND A LOT OF TIME YOU SEE THEM AND MAYBE THERE'S NOT ONE ON EVERY SINGLE WINDOW WHERE THERE'S DIFFERENT MEANS. SO, UM, BUT THE IDEA OF THE WINDOW SHADING IS TO, UH, REDUCE THE, UM, ENERGY USAGE IN THE SUMMER MONTHS WHEN IT'S PEAK COOLING SEASON. OKAY, ENTRYWAYS. SO TO EMPHASIZE THE ENTRYWAY, UM, THERE'S, AGAIN, THIS IS ANOTHER CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE. THIS ONE IS AT LEAST THREE. SEE, I WAS JUST IN THE FUTURE, NOT THE PAST. OKAY. THE, UM, SO THERE'S 10 OPTIONS ON HOW YOU CAN, UM, EMPHASIZE THAT ENTRYWAY. AND THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE OF HOW IT MIGHT LOOK. SO YOU MIGHT CHOOSE THE AWNING, A RECESSED ENTRANCE AND SIDE LIGHTING. UM, THAT COULD ALSO BE A COMBINATION OF ARCHES AND COLUMNS AND, UM, A TRANSOM WINDOW. SO THERE'S, THE IDEA IS YOU CAN COMBINE THEM TO CREATE YOUR DESIGN, BUT IT HAS TO BE EMPHASIZED SO THAT THAT MAIN ENTRANCE HAS THAT ATTENTION ON THE FRONT. AND THEN, UM, THERE WAS A RECOMMENDATION TO ADD CHANGE IN PAVEMENT TO THAT. AND SO, UM, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU MAY WANNA CONSIDER WHETHER A CHANGE IN PAVEMENT COULD ALSO BE USED AS A STRATEGY FOR THAT. UM, BUILDING CORNER TREATMENTS. SO, UM, THESE ARE, UM, BASICALLY THE IDEA IS YOU'RE EMPHASIZING A CORNER IF THEY'RE ON THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. SO IF YOU'RE AT TWO INTERSECTING STREETS THAT YOU'RE EITHER RECESSING OR PROJECTING, UH, CAN BE ACHIEVED THROUGH A NUMBER OF MEANS. SO TURRETS ROOF VARIATION, UM, A RECESS, UM, CHANGE IN BUILDING MATERIAL. SO AGAIN, IT'S CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE, AND THIS TIME IT'S ONLY ONE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO MULTIPLE. UM, SO THERE'S THAT ONE. AND, UM, AND THEN OCCUPIED ROOFS. SO, UM, OCCUPIED ROOFS ARE, AND THIS IS ONLY IF IT'S AN OCCUPIED ROOF, WE'RE NOT REQUIRING AN OCCUPIED ROOF, BUT IF YOU'RE MAKING A ROOF WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE USING IT PARTICULARLY AS OPEN SPACE, THEN ROOFTOP PLANTERS ARE REQUIRED. AND I WAS REALLY GLAD I GOT TO VISIT MY NIECE'S MULTI-FAMILY APARTMENT BUILDING IN BERKELEY BECAUSE SHE TOOK ME UP TO THEIR ROOF AND I WAS LIKE, OH, OKAY, THIS IS WHAT THIS LOOKS LIKE, . SO I WAS REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE THAT EXAMPLE. UM, AND SO, UM, THAT IS PRETTY MUCH, UM, THE MAJORITY OF WHAT WE HAVE IN HERE IN TERMS OF THE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. THERE'S PROBABLY A FEW THAT I DIDN'T HAVE SLIDES ON. I KNOW THAT, UM, I DID NOT ACTUALLY HAVE A SLIDE FOR THE GROUND FLOOR RESIDENTIAL ON ARTERIAL ROADS, AND THERE'S A QUESTION ABOUT THAT, SO I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE I TOUCH ON THAT AGAIN. UM, THIS IS FOR LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, IF IT'S ON WASHINGTON STREET AND YOU'RE GONNA HAVE AN ENTRANCE DIRECTLY INTO A UNIT FROM SOMETHING THAT'S A BUSY ARTERIAL STREET THAT YOU NEED TO SOMEHOW SEPARATE IT. AND AGAIN, THIS IS ANOTHER CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE, ONE OF THE FOLLOWINGS. SO THERE'S FOUR OPTIONS. YOU CAN DO THE RAISED FLOOR HEIGHT, UM, YOU COULD DO A WALL, YOU COULD DO A LANDSCAPE STRIP, OR YOU COULD DO A CHANGE IN PAVING MATERIAL. SO AGAIN, THERE'S OPTIONS AVAILABLE. UM, AND SO I THINK THAT THAT IS, THAT'S WHAT I GOT IN TERMS OF WALKING YOU THROUGH WHAT'S IN THERE. AND I'M EXCITED TO DISCUSS THESE THINGS AS WE COME BACK TO IT AMONG OTHERS. SO, OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT THOROUGH PRESENTATION. BEFORE MOVING TO PUBLIC COMMENT, I WANTED TO ASK IF ANY OF THE COMMISSIONERS HAD ANY CLARIFYING QUESTIONS BEFORE WE MOVE INTO THE SUBJECT BY SUBJECT QUESTION DISCUSSION PERIOD. ROGER, UM, IS A, IS AN ARCHITECT INVOLVED IN ANY OF THIS, UH, ILLUSTRATIONS OR, UH, EXAMPLES, THE ILLUSTRATIONS OR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE STANDARDS? SO THEY, THE, WE HAD SEVERAL ARCHITECTS WHO PROVIDED THE FEEDBACK ON THE STANDARDS. UM, AND SO THEY, THEY MORE OR LESS PROVIDED US, LIKE WE HAD, WE PROVIDED THEM WITH WHERE WE WERE GOING, [00:50:01] AND THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T THINK THAT THEY WERE ACHIEVABLE OR FEASIBLE, SO THEY BASICALLY REWROTE THEM AND GAVE US THEIR IDEAS. AND THEN WE'VE KIND OF WORKED THEM IN . SO, UM, AND THEN AS FAR AS THE ILLUSTRATIONS, UM, THE, THE, THOSE WERE DONE BY OUR TEAM. SO THESE LOVELY DRAWINGS, , I AM CURIOUS IF YOU COULD SPEAK A LITTLE BIT MORE TO THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING PARTICIPANTS IN THIS PROCESS AND WHAT THEY, UM, HAD THE MOST THOUGHTS ABOUT. SO THE OF, UH, SO THE DEVELOPERS, UM, DEVELOPERS WERE MOSTLY CONCERNED, UM, ABOUT THE, LIKE I SAID, THE BIG THING THAT THEY WERE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT WAS NOT BEING ABLE TO USE VINYL. UM, THAT, THAT CAME UP. AND I, I SHARE WITH THAT. I WAS LIKE, WELL, YOU KNOW, IT, IT'S HARD BECAUSE I KNOW AS A COMMISSION AND WHENEVER YOU'RE CRAFTING POLICY, THE DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY'S GONNA COME OUT AND SAY, THAT'S GONNA MAKE IT TOO EXPENSIVE. WE CAN'T DO IT. SO I SAID, WELL, I RECOMMEND THAT YOU, YOU BRING SOME HARD NUMBERS AND GIVE THEM AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU MEAN. IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT, UM, AS AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS, THEY WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE CONCESSIONS AND WAIVERS AS THEY QUALIFY FOR THEM. SO, I'M SORRY, I GOT FAR AWAY FROM MY MIC THERE. UM, IF FOR SOME REASON THERE'S SOMETHING SPECIFIC, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S ONE OR TWO THINGS THAT MAKE IT DIFFICULT, THEN THERE'S OPTION THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN, THEY CAN USE A CONCESSION OR A WAIVER AND THEORETICALLY NOT HAVE TO DO THAT. THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU HAVE TOO MANY THINGS AND TOO MANY REQUIREMENTS THAT DON'T WORK FOR THAT SITE. SO THERE IS SOME FLEXIBILITY FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING. IT'S JUST, UM, THAT THEY MAY NOT, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANNA HAVE TOO MANY THINGS, IF THAT MAKES SENSE. IT DOES. THANK YOU. I'M, I'M, UM, INTERESTED TO KNOW, AND MAYBE THIS IS A LITTLE TOO HYPOTHETICAL, BUT AS WE SORT OF GET INTO THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS AND, AND THE, THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD, COULD THERE BE CHALLENGE, IT SORT OF LIKE, HOW DOES THAT WORK? IF WE PUT FORWARD AN OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARD SET AND THEN DEVELOPERS SAY, WE CAN'T MAKE ANY HOUSING WITH THESE STANDARDS, THEN WHAT HAPPENS? WELL, I MEAN, IN THEORY, SO THERE'S ALWAYS CHALLENGES ANYTIME YOU'RE DOING DEVELOPMENT REVIEW. I MEAN, IT, IT'S JUST THE NATURE OF PLANNING. IT'S WHAT MAKES, IT'S WHY WE ALL LOVE IT AND IT'S SO MUCH FUN. UM, BUT THE, THE IDEA IS TO MAKE STANDARDS THAT AREN'T GONNA DO THAT. AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE DIDN'T GO DOWN THE ROAD OF SOMETHING LIKE MILPITAS, WHICH WAS VERY LONG, VERY COMPREHENSIVE, VERY PRESCRIPTIVE. AND SO OUR ORIGINAL DRAFT HAD A LOT MORE, UM, PRESCRIPTIVENESS TO IT. AND SO A LOT OF THAT HAS BEEN WE, WHAT WE THINK NOW IS A SET OF STANDARDS THAT SHOULD THAT, LIKE, AGAIN, OUR GOAL IS THAT THEY SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTABLE. AND, YOU KNOW, THE, THE TEAM THAT HAS, YOU KNOW, THE PLANT TEAM HAS LOOKED AT THESE, THEY REVIEW A LOT OF PROJECTS. IT'S, I, THERE'S NOT REALLY ANYTHING CRAZY IN HERE. UM, BUT, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T , IT'S, WE'LL, WE'LL WE'LL STILL GET SOME BELLY ACHING, I'M SURE. YEAH. OH YEAH, YEAH, FOR SURE. AND YEAH, DARREN, JUST A COUPLE FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS. UH, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR THE PRESENTATION. I LOVED HAVING SOME ILLUSTRATIONS FOR THE FINAL VERSION. DO WE PLAN ON HAVING SOME OF THESE RENDERINGS IN THERE JUST 'CAUSE READING THE CONCEPT VERSUS SEEING THE PICTURE CLARIFIES A LOT? YEAH, I JUST, THEY JUST WEREN'T DONE IN TIME TO GET THEM INTO THE DOCUMENT YET. AND ALSO THE FINAL VERSION, YOU KNOW, I, I DIDN'T WANNA GET THEM IN THERE AND THEN IF NUMBERS CHANGE OR THINGS CHANGE, SO I WAS WAITING TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE OUR, THAT MAKES SENSE. MM-HMM. . UH, AND THEN THE OTHER THING WAS IN DEFINITIONS. UM, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE OPEN SPACE IN THERE A COUPLE TIMES. DID WE EVER TALK ABOUT HAVING A DEFINITION OF OPEN SPACE THAT IS MORE ABOUT PRIORITY, OPEN SPACE OR PROTECTED OPEN SPACE? AND THE ONLY REASON I BRING THAT UP IS RIGHT NOW THE WAY IT'S DEFINED IS PRETTY BROAD AND IT CAN BE LIKE PUBLIC UTILITY EASEMENTS AND PARKS AND I DON'T KNOW, SOME DIFFERENT LAND USE SCENARIOS THAT I THINK WE WOULD HAVE KIND OF A DIFFERENT TENOR IN HOW WE TREAT IT. MM-HMM. , WAS THERE A THOUGHT ABOUT SEPARATING OUT OPEN SPACE BY MAYBE SOME KIND OF DESIGNATION? LIKE WHETHER IT'S IN A LAND TRUST OR IDENTIFIED ON SOME REGISTER AS LIKE A, A PROTECTED OPEN SPACE, ANYTHING LIKE THAT? OR IS THAT TOO I, I DON'T KNOW. I, NO, I, I THINK THAT THAT'S A VALUABLE THING TO DO. I'M WHAT I'M, WHAT'S GOING ON IN MY BRAIN IS THINKING, IS THIS, IS THIS THE RIGHT [00:55:02] LOCATION FOR THAT? OR SHOULD THAT BE DONE SORT OF THROUGH ONE OF OUR OTHER EFFORTS THAT WE'RE WORKING ON? LIKE, SHOULD THAT BE THROUGH THE GENERAL PLAN? 'CAUSE I'M THINKING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING IN THERE. I LUCKILY, I'VE BEEN ALSO LOOKING AT WHAT'S GOING THROUGH THAT PROCESS DOCUMENT WISE. SO I'M THINKING THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA BE, WELL-DEFINED THROUGH GENERAL PLAN DEVELOPMENT AND THEN ZONING CODE UPDATE AND THEN THAT COULD ROLL INTO HERE. MM-HMM. JUST BECAUSE WHEN WE'RE, AND I'LL BRING IT UP ON OUR TREE SPECIFIC, BUT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ANY PARK RIGHT OF WAY CITY OWNED, BUT THEN UTILITY EASEMENT, LIKE THESE AREN'T MM-HMM. ALL THE SAME. SO THINKING ABOUT HOW WE CAN DELINEATE WHICH MM-HMM. , LIKE I SAID, I'LL GET TO IN TREES. BUT THE INTENTION OF SOME OF THESE I THINK IS WHEN WE'RE NEXT TO LIKE A REALLY NICE PRISTINE OPEN SPACE THAT WE WANT PROTECT, WE'RE PULLING WITHIN 50 FEET MM-HMM. OF THAT AREA VERSUS IF WE'RE NEXT TO A PUBLIC UTILITY EASEMENT, DO WE HAVE THAT LEVEL OF CARE? MM-HMM. . SO JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE BREAK APART MM-HMM. KIND OF WHAT I THINK THE INTENTION IS ON SOME OF THESE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT OPEN SPACE. OKAY. UM, WELL I'M GONNA FOLLOW MY OWN ROLE AND NOT DIG INTO THE TOPICS THAT ARE GOING TO GET COVERED LATER, BUT I DID HAVE A PROCESS QUESTION AND THEN I DID WANNA TOUCH ON SOMETHING THAT, UH, YOU'VE GOT NOTED ON PAGE 11. UM, PROCESS-WISE. 'CAUSE I'VE HAD A FEW PEOPLE ASK, OKAY, YOU KNOW, WITH THE GENERAL PLAN, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GONNA GET AN UPDATE EVERY TWO DECADES OR SO WITH, WITH THE IZO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S COMING WITH IT. AND THEN YOU HAVE EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. MM-HMM. , UH, COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDING YOUR POINT ABOUT THIS BEING NOT RESTRICTIVE FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING, SO LESS PRESCRIPTIVE, BUT KIND OF MORE FORM TO IT. MM-HMM. , MAYBE LESS INDIVIDUAL FUNCTION. UH, WHAT WILL THE CADENCE, WHAT WOULD THE CADENCE BE THEORETICALLY FOR US TO CONTINUE TO UP UPDATE AND ITERATIVELY, ITERATIVELY, I CAN SAY THAT WORD, I SWEAR, UM, ADD TO THE, THE STANDARDS WE HAVE IN PLACE NOW. WELL, AND SO BASICALLY WHAT THE, THE POINT WHERE THINGS REALLY CHANGE ARE AS NEW POLICY THAT APPLIES TO ALL DEVELOPMENT GETS ADOPTED. AND I THINK THAT AS THESE STATE LAWS HAVE NOW TAKEN EFFECT, UM, AS PLANNERS, WE'RE DEFINITELY WRITING POLICY DIFFERENT AND WE'RE THINKING ABOUT IT IN AN OBJECTIVE MANNER. SO, YOU KNOW, IN PREVIOUS, YOU KNOW, EVEN NON HOUSING RELATED POLICY, UM, YOU KNOW, WHEN LIKE WE'RE, WE'RE LOOKING AT SHELLS, IF IT'S GOING IN A CODE, IT'S GOTTA BE A SHELL, NOT A SHOULD. UM, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO MAINTAIN THAT LEVEL OF OBJECTIVITY. SO, UM, AS GENERAL PLAN COMES IN, THAT'S GONNA PROVIDE THE POLICY GUIDANCE. OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A FEW THINGS THAT ARE MOVING FORWARD. FIRST, LIKE THE TREE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE. MM-HMM. . AND I THINK WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS POTENTIALLY IF SAY THE TREE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE THAT'S MOVING MOVES FORWARD, AND IT TURNS OUT THERE'S A DIFFERENT REGULATION THAT WOULD CONFLICT WITH THIS, BUT WOULD PROVIDE THE RIGHT POLICY DIRECTION THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR. MM-HMM. THEN, UM, LIKELY WHAT WOULD NEED TO HAPPEN IS, YOU KNOW, SECTION A, YOU KNOW, AND DYLAN, YOU CAN CHIME IN IF I'M TOTALLY OFF BASE HERE. BUT WHAT YOU WOULD WANNA DO IS SAY, OKAY, WE WANT THIS TO APPLY TO THE TREE PRESERVATION TO APPLY TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING, NOT WHAT'S IN AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING ORDINANCE RIGHT NOW. SO WE'RE GONNA REPEAL THAT, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER NUMBER THAT IS. AND THEN TREE PRESERVATION IS NOW COVERING THAT BASE. SO IDEALLY THAT'S WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IDEALLY IN THE FUTURE. YOU'D HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOUR STANDARDS THAT WOULD APPLY TO ALL DEVELOPMENT THAT WOULD COVER THESE OBJECTIVE BASIS OF WHAT YOU WANT AS BASELINE. SO IT WOULD BE AN ALL INCLUSIVE THING. SO AS EACH PIECE CONTINUES TO EVOLVE MM-HMM. IN EVERY OTHER ELEMENT OF OUR CITY PLANNING MM-HMM. PROCESSES, THIS WILL BE UPDATED WITH THAT EITHER DIRECTLY OR THROUGH SEPARATE MEANS. MM-HMM. , OKAY. YEAH. BUT, WE'LL, I GUESS, SO I'LL FRAME THIS A DIFFERENT WAY. I REMEMBER COMING ON THE PLANNING COMMISSION MM-HMM. , ONE OF THE MOST FRUSTRATING THINGS WAS HOW MANY, HOW MANY CHANGES WE WERE HAVING TO MAKE ON THE FLY WITH, WITH WHETHER IT WAS OUR, OUR GENERAL PLAN OR OUR ZONING MAP, IN PART BECAUSE WE WERE GETTING READY FOR ANOTHER GENERAL PLAN. THERE'S THINGS WE KNEW WE WANTED TO DO, BUT WEREN'T THERE YET, AND WE WERE CONSTANTLY MAKING AMENDMENTS. BUT THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM SAY, OH, WE'RE GONNA HAVE A PROPER ORDINANCE CHANGE. SO I GUESS MY QUESTION IS WILL THERE BE A, NOT JUST A GRADUAL, BUT WILL THERE BE, AND IS THIS STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE FOR A CITY, WILL THERE BE A 0.1 YEAR, TWO YEARS DOWN THE LINE WHERE WE DO A OVERALL CHECK-IN [01:00:01] WHERE WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS AGAIN? YEAH. WELL, AND I THINK THE IDEA AS I UNDERSTAND IT IS THAT WHAT I THINK WE'RE EXPECTING, SO GENERAL PLAN WE'RE HOPING WILL BE COMPLETE AND READY TO MM-HMM. , YOU KNOW, BE ADOPTED THE END OF 2025. RIGHT. SO THEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 2026, A COMPREHENSIVE ZONING ORDINANCE UPDATE. MM-HMM. . AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE THIS, THAT WOULD INCLUDE, THAT WOULD BE YOUR BIG SWEEPING POLICY CHANGE WHERE, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING FINALLY GETS THE RIGHT. SO BY 2026, THIS GETS A REFRESH ANYWAY. YEAH. MM-HMM. , WHICH SOUNDS REALLY FAR AWAY, BUT, BUT IT'S NOT. YEAH. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT, IT'S, YEAH. AND THERE'S A LOT OF WORK GOING ON. IT'S JUST WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT THERE YET, BUT IT'S, IT IS HAPPENING. SO, AND THEN THIS GOES BACK TO STATE LAW AND WHAT WE CAN OR CAN'T DO. MM-HMM. , IF WE FIND THERE'S BEEN A HOLE MM-HMM. , LIKE WE, WE PASS THIS THROUGH, WE RECOMMEND IT TO COUNCIL, COUNCIL, COUNCIL APPROVES IT. I KNOW THE, THE RATE AT WHICH PROJECTS DEVELOP DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY. BUT IN THIS HYPOTHETICAL, IF WE START TO SEE PROJECTS ARISE, AND THERE IS SOMETHING WE REALIZE WE HAVE ALL MISSED, UH, IS DO WE GET IN TROUBLE UNDER, I'M GUESSING THIS WOULD BE THREE 30, DO WE GET IN TROUBLE IF WE START TO RESPOND TO THE PROJECTS THAT MAYBE THINGS GOT APPROVED THAT WE WISH WE HAD PUT IN OBJECTIVE STANDARDS AHEAD OF TIME THAT WE MISSED? IF WE RESPOND ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT PROJECT WITH A CHANGE BEFORE THE NEXT ONE COMES IN, DO WE GET PENALIZED IN ANY WAY WITH, WITH, UH, HOUSING THE STATE HOUSING AUTHORITY? SO DYLAN MAY BE BETTER TO YEAH. I CAN HELP YOU ANSWER THIS ONE A LITTLE BIT. SO I MEAN, SSB THREE 30, THE PROJECT VESTS WITH THE CODES WHEN THEY SUBMIT A COMPLETE PRELIMINARY APPLICATION MM-HMM. . SO LET'S SAY THE FIRST PROJECT WE GET UNDER THIS, WE REALIZE THERE'S A HOLE. WE COULD AMEND THESE HOPEFULLY PRETTY QUICKLY TO GAP THAT HOLE BEFORE WE GET THE SECOND PROJECT. PERFECT. YEAH. IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT THERE, CHAIR. PERFECT. THANK YOU. MM-HMM. . UM, AND THEN MOVING AWAY FROM THIS, I HAVE ONE MORE CLARIFYING QUESTION. IT HAS TO DO WITH, I SAW DEFENSIBLE SPACE STANDARDS, THE RECOMMENDATION WAS TO KEEP IT OUT FOR NOW, WAIT FOR THE, UH, FIRE CODE TO BE UPDATED. MM-HMM. HOW OUT OF DATE IS OUR FIRE CODE, AND, UH, WHEN WILL THE NEXT UPDATE TAKE PLACE? BECAUSE I'M, I'M A LITTLE NERVOUS ABOUT SEEING THAT THE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE LANDSCAPING STANDARDS DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT FIVE FEET DISTANCE. YEAH. SO, AND THIS, SO THIS WAS, THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT, UM, PART OF THE REASON IT CAME OUT WAS BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE DOING THIS WHOLE PROCESS, WE'RE LIKE, WAIT, THERE ARE DEFENSIBLE SPACE STANDARDS IN THE FIRE CODE RIGHT NOW AROUND, BUT IT'S SPECIFIC TO LIKE THE , WHICH IS, SORRY, WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE AREAS. MM-HMM. . UM, SO IT, IT'S, IT'S LIMITED WHERE IT APPLIES TO. AND THE MORE THAT WE'VE TALKED WITH JESSICA, THE LESS BLACK AND WHITE THIS HAS BECOME. OKAY. SO LIKE HEATHER HEINZ HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HER 'CAUSE SHE'S WORKING ON THE TREE ORDINANCE AND YOU KNOW, HEATHER BROUGHT UP THE ISSUE THAT LIKE, IF WE DO THIS 10 FEET THING, YOU'RE NOT HAVING ANY TREES DOWNTOWN. JESSICA SAID, WELL, YOU KNOW, DOWNTOWN'S DIFFERENT . IT WAS LIKE, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE. SO IT, WE REALIZED THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S EASILY MM-HMM. ACHIEVED THROUGH ODS. AND SO OUR THOUGHT WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, LIKE WE'RE NOT REQUIRING LANDSCAPING UP AGAINST THE BUILDING. SO ORIGINALLY THERE WERE SOME THINGS IN THERE THAT WERE LIKE, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE SOME LANDSCAPING THAT'S THIS FEET WIDE BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, MM-HMM. THE WALKWAY AND THIS. SO, SO THOSE ARE NOT IN THERE AS REQUIREMENTS BECAUSE THERE WAS CONCERN THAT THEY MIGHT CONFLICT. UM, BUT WE ALSO DID NOT INCLUDE THE DEFENSIBLE SPACE, EXCEPT WE DID LEAVE IT IN ONE PLACE. WHICH, UM, AGAIN, IS SOMETHING THAT MIGHT COME OUT AT YOUR DIRECTION, WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE REQUIRE THE PLANTING OF TREES BETWEEN IF THERE'S EXISTING SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCE WHERE A MULTIFAMILY WOULD BE GOING IN ON THE ADJACENT PARCEL, THAT THERE WOULD BE A FOUR FOOT FENCE AND ONE TREE EVERY 30 FEET. BUT THAT THE CANOPY OF THE TREE WOULD NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 10 FEET FROM EACH STRUCTURE SO THAT IT'S NOT MM-HMM. OVER ANYBODY'S HOUSE. SO I DID LEAVE THAT IN, UM, BUT IT COULD, IT COULD COME OUT AS WELL. IT WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE IT WAS IN THERE AND IT WAS OUT. AND HEATHER, I'LL ADD TO, SO THE WHOLE BUILDING STANDARDS CODE, I THINK THERE'S LIKE 15, WHICH INCLUDES THE FIRE CODE. IT'S UPDATED EVERY THREE YEARS. [01:05:01] I THINK THE NEXT ONE WILL BE IN 2024. BUT PETALUMA THROUGH OUR BUILDING INSPECTOR, OUR CHIEF BUILDING OFFICIAL, OUR FIRE MARSHAL, THEY DO LOCAL AMENDMENTS TO THE FIRE CODE, THE BUILDING CODE EVERY YEAR. THAT'S WHERE LIKE OUR ALL ELECTRIC ORDINANCE. MM-HMM. , IT WAS THROUGH LOCAL AMENDMENTS OF THE BUILDING CODE. UM, SO WE'RE PRETTY RESPONSIVE TO UPDATING OUR CODES, WHICH COULD INCLUDE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS I WOULD THINK AS WELL. YEAH. GREAT. THANK YOU. ARE THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS BEFORE OKAY, WITH THAT? OH, GO AHEAD, ROGER. I, ONE QUESTION. UM, THIS, THIS APPLIES, THIS APPLIES ONLY TO HOUSING THAT QUALIFIES FOR THE, THE BILLS, IS THAT CORRECT? YES. CORRECT. SO IT'S ALL RESIDENTIAL AND IT'S ALL A TYPE OF HOUSING TYPE OF SITE PLAN THAT IS USUALLY 20 UNITS PER ACRE OR ABOVE APPROXIMATELY. IT. I, I, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO USE THOSE PROJECTS, THOSE 20 UNITS AND ABOVE SITE PLANS AS EXAMPLES OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO. 'CAUSE A LOT OF THESE DRAWINGS LOOK LIKE ONE BUILDING WITH A STREET AROUND IT, AND IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THE ACTUAL TYPE OF PROJECT YOU'RE GONNA GET. SO THAT, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S JUST, WE'RE REFERENCING SOMETHING THAT'S MADE UP. IT'S NOT A REAL SITE PLAN. IT'S NOT, DOESN'T HAVE THE REAL PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SOLVE, BUT WE ILLUSTRATE IT THIS WAY. 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING? UH, WELL, I, I'M NOT, NO, BECAUSE I MEAN, WE, THERE'S, WE LOOKED AT A LOT OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS AS WE WERE WORKING ON THESE. SO THE REASONS THAT THESE ARE HERE ARE BECAUSE OF LOOKING AT ACTUAL SITE PLANS. SO I'M NOT, I'M NOT CLEAR WHAT THE QUESTION IS. MAYBE WHEN WE GET INTO THE REVIEW OF THE, OF THE ILLUSTRATIONS, WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT FURTHER. SURE. ALRIGHT, WELL, WITH THAT WE WILL MOVE INTO PUBLIC COMMENT. THE PUBLIC'S INVITED TO COMMENT ON THIS ITEM. PUBLIC COMMENTS ARE LIMITED TO THREE MINUTES PER PERSON. IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE SO ALREADY, PLEASE FILL OUT A SPEAKER CARD AND BRING IT TO THE CLERK. I BELIEVE WE HAVE ONE PUBLIC COMMENT. I BELIEVE WE HAVE TWO PUBLIC COMMENTS. THIS IS GREAT. UM, THANK YOU FOR THAT CLARIFICATION. DID WE RECEIVE ANY COMMENTS PRIOR TO THE MEETING? WE RECEIVED THREE PUBLIC COMMENTS RELATING TO THIS ITEM, ALL THREE OF WHICH WERE POSTED ONLINE AND IS ALSO AVAILABLE IN THE BACK FOR REVIEW. THANK YOU. FEEL FREE TO GO NEXT. UM, THIS HAS IT, IT'S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT COMMENT. UM, I, YOUR PRESENTATION WAS GREAT AND THE AMOUNT OF MATERIAL THERE WAS FABULOUS. I READ EVERYTHING THAT WAS ONLINE, BUT AS I WAS GOING THROUGH, UH, MY NAME IS NICOLA FRY AND I'M THE CHAIR OF THE SENIOR ADVISORY COMMITTEE. AND AS I WENT THROUGH, THERE WAS ONE COMMENT, THERE WAS ONE SECTION THAT MENTIONED A DA REQUIREMENTS, AND THEN BEYOND THAT, NOTHING WAS MENTIONED ABOUT REQUIREMENTS FOR SENIOR ACCESSIBILITY. UM, A DA ACCESSIBILITY. THERE WAS ONE COMMENT IN ONE OF THE SECTIONS THAT HAD TO DO WITH MAKING SURE THE TREES ARE NOT DISRUPTING THE SIDEWALKS. I'M NOT QUITE SURE HOW YOU SAID THAT, BUT I REMEMBER YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT. BUT IS THERE ANY WAY IN WHICH THE SENIOR ADVISORY COMMITTEE CAN INPUT MORE THAN JUST MY STANDING HERE FOR THREE MINUTES? AND I KNOW YOU CAN'T REALLY ANSWER THAT, BUT NO. OH, HE SAYS FINE. YEAH. SO GO AHEAD. A DA REQUIREMENTS AND THE ACCESSIBILITY AND THE VISIBILITY IS ALL IN THE BUILDING CODE. YES, I KNOW THAT. AND SO THERE IS ONE REFERENCE IN HERE BECAUSE THE BUILDING INSPECTOR SPECIFICALLY TOLD ME TO ADD THAT LINE, AND I WAS LIKE, WELL, ALL RIGHT, I'LL JUST DO IT , BECAUSE HE SAID SO. BUT, UM, BUT A DA, I MEAN, EVERYTHING HAS TO MEET A DA, SO IT ALL HAS TO MEET VISIBILITY AND ACCESSIBILITY. UM, SO THAT IT, IT'S, IT'S NOT JUST, IT'S, IT'S JUST NOT WHAT GOES IN OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS 'CAUSE IT'S IN THE BUILDING CODE. YEAH. I'M REALLY MORE TALKING ABOUT SENIOR LOOK AND FEEL FOR THINGS AND, AND USABILITY BY SENIORS. NOT NECESSARILY A DA REQUIREMENTS, WHICH ARE VERY SPECIFIC. MM-HMM. , UM, I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT SOMEHOW THE SENIORS IN THIS TOWN ARE KIND OF ELIMINATED FROM THE PROCESSES THAT ARE DONE LIKE THIS, UH, FOR INPUT. WE JUST DON'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY. MM-HMM. 'CAUSE A [01:10:01] LOT OF TIMES WE DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS ARE COMING UP. YEAH. UM, SO, WELL THERE, THE, SO IN ADDITION TO A DA, THERE'S ALSO VISITABILITY STANDARDS. SO I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE, HAVE YOU LOOKED AT, AND SO YOU WANT IS THERE, IF THERE, I MEAN, I'M HAPPY TO, I DON'T KNOW HOW I GO . I, SO JUST, JUST TO CLARIFY PART OF WHY I, I SAID GO AHEAD. IT'S NOT THE CORRECT PROCEDURE TO LET ANYBODY HAVE A BACK AND FORTH. HOWEVER, SINCE ONE, WE HAVE A VERY SMALL CROWD TONIGHT AND TWO, 'CAUSE I'M PRETTY SURE ONE OR THREE OR ALL OF US WERE GOING TO THEN IMMEDIATELY ASK THAT QUESTION AT SOME POINT FELT LIKE MORE EFFICIENT TO LET IT BE ANSWERED. UH, IT SOUNDS LIKE THOUGH THAT RIGHT NOW IS NOT A CLEAR PATHWAY PER THE QUESTION YOU'RE ASKING IN TERMS OF, IN TERMS OF, UH, SENIOR, THE ABILITY FOR SENIORS TO DIRECTLY ENGAGE ON THIS. AND THAT'S SOMETHING FOR US TO NOTE GOING FORWARD. OKAY. I THINK THAT'S A GOOD WORD. THAT ANSWERS IT. THANK YOU. AND OUR, OUR NEXT PUBLIC COMMENT, JOIN HERE AGAIN. UM, SPEAKING OF SENIOR ACCESSIBILITY, I, I REALLY WORRY ABOUT, WELL, I WAS DOWN WALKING AROUND THE, UH, UH, THE TURNING BASIN TODAY, AND THIS, THE WATER LEVEL WAS UP TO WITHIN A FOOT OR TWO OF THE, UM, AREA THERE. I I, I GET CONCERNED WITH BUILDING HOUSES FOR SENIORS NEAR WHERE THE FLOODING WILL OCCUR. AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S PROS PROPER TO BE CONSIDERED IN YOUR PLANNING, BUT THAT, THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS GONNA SAY. I WAS GONNA SAY THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR CONCERN WITH ALL OF THESE. AND, UH, THE FIRE DANGER IS WHAT WOULD, UH, WORRY ME. AND IF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR TREES, AND I WOULD JUST ASK THAT, UH, AT LEAST ONE STEP FORWARD WOULD BE IF, CAN YOU, IS IT PROPER FOR YOU TO PROHIBIT EUCALYPTUS TREES? IT SEEMED LIKE THAT FIRE DOWN IN BERKELEY 20 YEARS AGO WAS ALL EUCALYPTUS AND THAT THEY'RE, THEY ARE VERY FLAMMABLE. AND THERE'D BE ONE QUESTION I'D ASK YOUR EXPERT, AND THAT IS, WHEN THEY WERE BUILDING 10,002 CAR SUBURBIA IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, DID THEY HAD ANYBODY TELLING 'EM THAT THEY NEEDED OBJECTIVE STANDARDS? OR IS THAT JUST PICKING ON PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO IT RIGHT. AND, UH, BUILD ENVIRONMENTALLY SENSITIVE HOUSING NOWADAYS. OKAY. ANYWAY, THAT'S, SO THAT'S SOMEWHAT A, UH, A OBVIOUS QUE THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS THAT, THAT WOULD BE MY QUESTION IS DID THEY HAVE ANY, UM, PEOPLE COMING AFTER THEM TO TELL THEM TO BUILD HOUSES RIGHT WHEN THEY WERE DOING 10,002 CAR SUBURBIA? , THANK YOU. AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MM-HMM, , THANK YOU. AND WITH THAT, I WILL CLOSE PUBLIC COMMENT ON THIS ITEM, AND NOW WE WILL MOVE INTO OUR QUESTION SLASH DISCUSSION PORTION FOR THIS MEETING. THE WAY WE WILL BE DOING IT, WE'VE GOT, AS PROVIDED BY STAFF, A HANDFUL OF TOPICS TO START WITH THAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR A DIRECT FEEDBACK FROM HEATHER'S GOING TO REINTRODUCE THEM. AND THEN WE WILL GO THROUGH AND TACKLE QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION AT ONCE. WE WILL GO TOPIC BY TOPIC AND THEN AT THE END WE WILL DO KIND OF THE CATCHALL FOR EVERYTHING ELSE. THE IDEA BEING THAT THIS IS SOME MEETINGS ARE ABOUT MAKING CLEAR STATEMENTS BEFORE VOTES. THIS IS A MEETING OF PROVIDING CLEAR FEEDBACK FOR STAFF. SO WITH THAT IN MIND, I WILL HAND IT OFF TO HEATHER AGAIN TO START US. OKAY. OH, THERE IT IS. OKAY. I LOST MY ZOOM FOR A SECOND. OKAY. WE GO. OH, YES. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. UM, SO I HAVE EVERYTHING WRITTEN HERE IN MY LI MY LIST, BUT, UM, I THINK WHAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL, WELL, LET'S JUST START, LET'S GO DOWN. SO LET'S TACKLE THE BIG, BIG THINGS FIRST, VINYL WINDOW, VINYL FACADE MATERIALS AND WINDOW MATERIALS. SO, UM, THAT WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD PLACE TO START IF YOU WANNA WALK THROUGH THAT ONE. AND DID YOU NEED ADDITIONAL INFORMATION OR YOU GUYS WANNA JUST PROVIDE FEEDBACK ON THAT? THE B WELL, HOW ABOUT THIS? WE'LL START, WE'LL START HERE. DOES ANYBODY HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT BEFORE MOVING INTO DISCUSSION HERE? QUESTION IS, WE LOOKED AT OTHER MUNICIPALITIES. DID WE FIND SOMETHING SIMILAR WITH VINYL? UH, THAT IT WAS PROHIBITED? I'M THINKING, YOU KNOW, HONESTLY, I DON'T, I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY IF ANYBODY [01:15:01] HAD, I, I FEEL LIKE THERE WAS, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY. I'M SORRY. THAT'S FINE. THANK YOU. ROGER. UH, VINYL, VINYL FACADE. I MEAN, VINYL CLAD WINDOWS OR, OR PLASTIC WINDOWS. I'M NOT SURE WHICH YOU MEAN. SO IT'S THE VINYL CLAD IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. SO AS WELL AS VINYL MATERIALS SUCH AS THE SIDING IS, IS ALSO INCLUDED. RAIN GUTTERS, THOSE TYPES OF ANYTHING THAT'S ON THE FACADE. SO YEAH, MY UNDERSTANDING, VINYL CLA WINDOWS ARE VERY PRACTICAL AND DURABLE AND PREFERRED MORE SO THAN WOOD WINDOWS OR, UM, METAL WINDOWS. SO IT SEEMS LIKE GOOD THING TO HAVE. OKAY. JESSICA, I, I APOLOGIZE TO CONTINUE TO ASK YOU TO BE A, A PROXY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WERE MAKING THESE ARGUMENTS, BUT I'M CURIOUS TO NOTE, TO HEAR WHAT, UH, I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S SOME, UH, ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS IN THE PRODUCTION OF VINYL MM-HMM. AND THAT THERE'S SOME CONCERNS ABOUT WHETHER IT'S A HIGH QUALITY ENOUGH LOOK IN THE END. MM-HMM. PRODUCT. MM-HMM. . WHAT OTHER HANGUPS WERE THERE AROUND VINYL? UM, I THINK THOSE, THOSE WERE THE MAIN ONES. JUST THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS OF THE PRODUCTION OF VINYL. AND THEN, UM, THE AESTHETIC. AND I THINK IN PARTICULAR, ESPECIALLY LIKE OLDER VINYL, UM, WHEN YOU LOOK AT VINYL SIDING THAT'S OLDER AND ESPECIALLY THE LOWER GRADE, 'CAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENT GRADES OF VINYL. UM, WHEN IT GETS HEATED AND COOLED, IT DOES SAG. AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF, OF LESS AESTHETIC VINYL. UM, SO I THINK THAT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, THAT'S PART OF IT FOR SURE. AND THEN THE ENVIRONMENT, I HAVEN'T HEARD OTHER REASONS BEYOND THAT, ALTHOUGH, NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE. UM, THE FIRE MARSHAL DID NOTE THAT THEY, UM, ARE NOT GOOD FOR FIRE RESILIENCY. THAT'S RIGHT. I ALMOST FORGOT THAT ONE. AND I'LL JUST ADD, I'M LOOKING AT THE MILLED ORDINANCE THAT WAS INCLUDED AS AN ATTACHMENT, AND IT LOOKS LIKE VINYL IS PROHIBITED JUST FOR THE SIDING MATERIAL AS, AS WELL WITH PLYWOOD, PLASTIC, FIBERGLASS, BUT NOTHING ABOUT WINDOWS. THANKS FOR THAT, DYLAN. AND I THINK THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I WOULD LAND ON THIS, JUST TO GIVE MY FEEDBACK. THAT PROJECT KINDA KICKED US OFF IS NO TO VINYL SIDING. I THINK VINYL WINDOWS IN SURVEYING A, A FEW ARCHITECTS WHO MIGHT'VE BEEN PART OF THIS PROCESS. THAT WAS KIND OF THE, THE CONSENSUS I GOT FROM THEM AS WELL. SO, SO I, OH, GOING BACK TO QUESTIONS 'CAUSE I HADN'T FINISHED THAT YET. UM, HOW OFTEN HAVE WE FOUND THAT VINYL FALLS APART? LIKE, IS IT UNIFORMLY FALLING APART AFTER 30 YEARS? OR IS THERE A A IT'S THE AVERAGE LIFESPAN. IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE ANYTHING YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE NORTH, THE SOUTH SIDE VERSUS THE NORTH SIDE OF A HOUSE, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF WEAR AND TEAR BASED ON SUN EXPOSURE. UM, YOU KNOW, SO, BUT HONESTLY, I'M NOT, I'M NOT A BUILDING MATERIALS EXPERT, JUST FULL DISCLOSURE. SO, NO, THAT'S FAIR. YEAH. I, I CAN'T, YEAH. UNIFORMLY TELL YOU AND OUTTA CURIOSITY FOR THESE OTHER MUNICIPALITIES THAT STILL ALLOW FOR IT, WAS THERE ANYTHING THEY PUT IN THEIR, IN THEIR CODE TO PLAN FOR REPLACEMENT? ESPECIALLY IF THESE ARE LOWER INCOME PROJECTS USUALLY? NO, NOT THAT I SAW, NO. OKAY. CAN I PIGGYBACK ON THAT? IS IT PERMISSIBLE IN OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS TO MANDATE SOME SORT OF LONGEVITY OF, OF, YOU KNOW, I WAS SEEING 10 TO 30 YEARS FOR VINYL WINDOWS. CAN WE SAY IT HAS TO HAVE A PROJECTED, UH, UH, DURABILITY OF 20 PLUS YEARS? UM, I DON'T SEE WHY WE COULDN'T HAVE A REQ, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU HAVE TO USE A MATERIAL THAT HAS A PROJECTED LIFESPAN AGAINST PROJECTED, BUT, YOU KNOW, MOST MATERIAL, MOST BUILDING THINGS WHEN YOU LOOK AT, AND I'VE ALSO SPENT A LOT OF TIME LOOKING AT BUILDING SITES, LOOKING AT, USUALLY THE MANUFACTURERS WILL SAY, THE EXPECTED LIFESPAN IS THIS. NOW GRANTED IT'S EXPECTED. THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT'S WHAT IT WILL BE. IS THERE AN OBJECTIVE STANDARD? I KNOW LIKE ENERGY STAR COULD MAYBE BE SOMETHING TO UTILIZE, BUT IS, IS THERE SORT OF IN THE WAY THAT WE ARE POINTING TO NATIVE SPECIES AS DECIDED BY THIS WEBSITE, IS THERE A SORT OF LIKE UNIVERSAL, UH, MATERIALS GREATER? UM, I AM NOT AWARE OF ONE. IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T ONE. IT JUST MEANS I DON'T KNOW OF IT. [01:20:02] A QUESTION, UH, WOULD, WOULD WINDOWS HAVE A LIFE EXPECTANCY TOO IF THEY'RE NOT MAINTAINED? SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE. IT SEEMS LIKE NO MATTER WHAT THE WINDOW IS, IT HAS TO BE MAINTAINED PROPERLY. MAYBE THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE SAYING MORE THAN BECAUSE OF, I MEAN, THE QUALITY OF THE WINDOW, THE MANUFACTURER OF THE VINYL CLOUD WINDOW, IT'S A HUNDRED YEARS APART, DEPENDING, OR A HUNDRED DOLLARS APART IN TERMS OF WHO, WHAT BRAND YOU PICK, WHAT QUALITY YOU PICK. SO JUST SAYING VINYL CLOUD IS OUT. IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT SMART, BUT I THINK REQUIRING A LONG-TERM, DURABILITY, MAINTENANCE OF, OF THE WINDOW IS IMPORTANT. UM, ALSO, JUST TO WRAP UP, WHAT I'M GUESSING IS THE END OF QUESTIONS FOR THIS, UH, I SAW REPEATEDLY IN THE STAFF REPORT AND ALSO IN COMMENTS THAT CAME UP TO US THROUGH EMAIL ABOUT THE HOW TOXIC IT CAN BE. AND I DON'T WANNA BRUSH THAT ASIDE. ARE THERE ANY SERIOUS HEALTH IMPACTS RELATED TO USING THIS FACADE MATERIAL? IT'S, SORRY, IT'S, IT'S NOT THAT THE WINDOW ONCE, IT, IT'S NOT LIKE LEAD PAINT WHERE IF YOUR KID LICK IT, THEY'RE GONNA GET YEAH, THAT'S SICK. IT'S THE BYPRODUCT DURING THE MANUFACTURING. SO WHAT I UNDERSTAND FROM, UM, OUR CLIMATE ADVOCATES IS THAT THE BYPRODUCT IS DIOXIN. AND SO THAT'S THE MAIN REASON TO AVOID, UM, THE MATERIAL BECAUSE OF THE BYPRODUCT DURING THE MANUFACTURING. BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT LEAD PAINT WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT CHEWING ON IT. WELL, I WAS JUST GONNA KIND OF SAY, YEAH, I, I, ANYTHING, ANYTIME WHERE WE CAN, UM, REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF DIOXIN GOING INTO THE ENVIRONMENT, I THINK TO ME WOULD BE PREFERABLE. AND I THINK PERSONALLY, I THINK VINYL, THESE VINYL WINDOWS LOOK PRETTY CHEAP AND WHEN THEY DO DEGRADE IT LOOKS PRETTY BAD. AND I JUST DON'T SEE HOW WE'RE GONNA BE LIKE HOLDING ANY DEVELOPERS TO SOME STANDARDS THAT SAY WHEN THESE LOOK BAD IN 20 OR 30 YEARS, YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S REALLY FEASIBLE OR WOULD WORK OUT IN THE END. SO, UM, I, I, I THINK, UM, YOU KNOW, IF WE WANNA HAVE OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS AND SAY WE EXPECT THESE BUILDINGS TO LOOK A CERTAIN WAY AND, UH, NOT TO LOOK CHEAPLY BUILT, THEN FOR ME, I MEAN, VINYL RE LEAVING VINYL, UH, WINDOWS OUT OF THE MIX WOULD BE MY PREFERENCE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S JUST, IT'S JUST ME. SO. OKAY. AND MOVING INTO PREFERENCES AND I'LL KICK OFF AND THEN WE'LL KEEP GOING DOWN THE, THE ROW. UM, ONE, I COMPLETELY AGREE ON THE DI DIOXIN ISSUE. UH, THERE'S PRETTY MUCH NO EXCUSE TO BE ADDING MORE OF THAT. AND THE OTHER THING, MOST, MOST PEOPLE I HAVE FOUND, ESPECIALLY IN THE NONPROFIT HOUSING WORLD, REALLY TRY TO STRIVE TO NOT MAKE HOUSING THAT LOOKS LIKE IT'S AFFORDABLE HOUSING. THE REASON FOR THAT BEING IS THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD HOUSING, ESPECIALLY HERE ARE WORKING FULL-TIME JOBS AND HAVE FULL CAREERS AND ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN. AND THERE'S JUST SO MUCH STIGMA AROUND THAT. I ALSO AGREE THAT VINYL, IT FRANKLY LOOKS ABOUT AS CHEAP AS IT PROBABLY IS. SO I I WOULD ALSO BE IN FAVOR OF KEEPING IT REMOVED AS AN OPTION. GO AHEAD, ROGER. YEAH, JESSICA. UM, I WOULD SAY THAT VINYL AS A FACADE MATERIAL, I'M COMFORTABLE EXCLUDING, BUT WISH TO ALLOW FOR VINYL WINDOWS BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A MAJOR DRIVER FOR COST. AND, UH, FROM A DURABILITY AND EASE OF USE STANDPOINT, VINYL WINDOWS, I THINK HAVE HAVE A MEANINGFUL PLACE IN MULTI-FAMILY UNITS. SO MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE TO KEEP EXCLUDED VINYL FOR OUR, OUR FACADE PURPOSES. UM, BUT ALLOW VINYL WINDOWS. I'M OPEN TO CONSIDERING FROM A, UM, ENVIRONMENTAL STANDPOINT, MAYBE THERE'S A TRADE OFF TO BE MADE OF, IF YOU'RE USING VINYL WINDOWS, THEY HAVE TO BE DOUBLE PANED AND THEN THAT GIVES US A LITTLE SECURITY ON THE ENERGY USAGE. SO THERE'S LIKE A LITTLE BIT OF A TRADE OFF THERE. UM, BUT YEAH, THAT'S NO VINYL FACADE. YES, VINYL WINDOWS IS MY PREFERENCE. YEAH. AND THERE ARE INSULATION REQUIREMENTS THAT COME FROM THE BUILDING CODE. SO CAL GREEN DOES HAVE [01:25:01] REQUIREMENTS IN THERE. SO PRETTY MUCH NOBODY'S DOING SINGLE PANE ANYMORE 'CAUSE YOU CAN'T MEET THE R FACTOR. SO ALSO I THINK AREN'T DOUBLE PANE WINDOWS REQUIRED BY THE BUILDING CODE OR SELECT. I THINK THEY ARE NOT, YEAH, THAT'S OKAY. SO NOT NOT A USEFUL TRADE OFF, BUT MY RECOMMENDATION REMAINS NO VINYL FACADE, BUT YES, VINYL WINDOWS. OKAY. , THERE ARE SOME VERY HIGH QUALITY WINDOW MANUFACTURERS, ANDERSON AND SO ON THAT MAKE VINYL CLOUD WINDOWS AND THEY STAND BY THEM. SO IT'S, TO ME, IT'S A, IT'S THE QUALITY OF THE PRODUCT YOU'RE INSTALLING MORE SO THAN THE LABEL OF VINYL. MM-HMM. . SO, UM, I, I JUST THINK IT'S A RESTRICTION THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE MADE. AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THE SIDING? VINYL SIDING, VINYL SIDING? MM-HMM. ? NO, NOT AT ALL. VINYL FENCING, NOT AT ALL. HORRIBLE. OKAY. BUT VINYL CLOUD WINDOWS ARE, ARE MADE FOR A PURPOSE NOT TO BE CHEAP, BUT TO BE WEATHERPROOF. AND JUST TO GET CLARIFICATION, ARE WE, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BYPRODUCT THAT OF DAX AND THAT'S PRODUCED MAKING VINYL MATERIAL, IS THIS APPLYING FOR BOTH FACADE AND THE WINDOWS, OR IS THAT A DIFFERENT PROCESS FOR THE WINDOWS? I, I DON'T KNOW. ALRIGHT. SORRY. I I THINK IT'S BOTH. OKAY. WELL, YEAH, THE READING I SAW WAS IT WAS LIKE JUST PVC IN GENERAL, THE PRODUCTION OF PVC HAS THESE BYPRODUCTS THAT ARE, THAT ARE PROBLEMATIC. YEP, FAIR ENOUGH. OKAY. WELL, WITH THAT, SORRY, WITH THAT, SO, OH, SO JUST TO CLARIFY, IT LOOKS LIKE THEN, UM, WE HAVE NO VINYL AND THEN WE HAVE SOMEWHERE IT'S NO VINYL SIDING, BUT WINDOWS ARE VINYL. WINDOWS ARE, OKAY. IS THAT ABOUT RIGHT? MM-HMM. OKAY. SO I, WE SOMEWHAT DIRECTION THERE. SO WE AGREE, WE AGREE ON NO SIDING. OKAY. JUST NO SIGHTING, NO SIGHTING, SIDING OUTRIGHT. IT'S A BAD THING APPARENTLY. OKAY. UM, ON THE WINDOWS WE HAVE SOME DISAGREEMENT. OKAY. BUT I HEARD A MAJORITY WAS IN FAVOR OF KEEPING VINYL WINDOWS IN, I THINK THREE, THREE OUT OF FIVE MAYBE. THAT'S SAFE TO SAY. YEAH. DO WE WANNA JUST DROP, LET'S JUST DO A STRAW POLL SO WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHO, WHO WANTS TO KEEP THE VINYL WINDOWS? WHO WANTS TO ALLOW VINYL WINDOWS TO BE VINYL CLAD? KEEP THAT IN THE COAT. VINYL CLAD WINDOWS, NOT VINYL WINDOWS, OR NOT VINYL FACADE WINDOWS. VINYL CLAD. YEAH. WHO WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THE VINYL CLAD? THERE WE GO. OKAY. THREE OUT OF FIVE. OKAY. THAT'S WHAT I GOT. ALL RIGHT. MOVING ON. YES. OKAY. SO LET'S TALK WINDOW DESIGN. LET ME GO BACK TO MY, UH, . MY MOUSE IS STUCK ON ONE SCREEN. OKAY. WAIT, HOLD ON. I GOTCHA. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO AGAIN, THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT CAME INTO US S WERE, UM, THERE WE GO. SO WINDOWS IN STUCCO, WHETHER CEMENT, PLASTER, OR EIFS MUST BE RECESSED A MINIMUM OF TWO INCHES, UM, AND SHALL NOT BE TRIMMED OUT OTHER THAN HAVING A PROJECTING SILL. SO CAN YOU JUST CONFIRM THIS IS NOT IN THE DRAFT, RIGHT? THIS IS NOT IN THE DRAFT. OKAY. THIS, THIS WAS NOT INCLUDED BECAUSE AGAIN, IT'S, I, THERE WERE JUST A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF, OF PROJECTS THROUGHOUT PETALUMA THAT I HAD SEEN. SO REALLY WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT DESIGN A LOT, LIKE SOME OF IT WAS, YOU KNOW, WHAT OTHER JURISDICTIONS DID, WHAT WE WERE HEARING FROM OUR STAKEHOLDERS, BUT ALSO LOOKING WHAT HAD BEEN APPROVED OVER THE YEARS, WHAT WAS CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW, APPROVABLE IN TERMS OF AESTHETIC. AND SO THERE WERE A LOT OF WIN. UH, THERE WERE A LOT OF BUILDINGS THAT HAD WINDOWS THAT DID NOT COMPLY WITH THIS STANDARD. UM, AND THE REASONING BEHIND IT, UM, I, I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE IT WAS STRONG ENOUGH WHERE I WANTED TO PUT IT IN AS SOMETHING, AS A RECOMMENDATION. IT'S NOT TO SAY IT'S WRONG. THERE'S OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IT WAS JUST VERY SUBJECTIVE AND I WAS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT AS SAYING THIS IS A FIRM STANDARD, ESPECIALLY IF WE'RE STARTING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, AS WE'RE LOOKING AT OTHER THINGS THAT ARE IN THERE. UM, YEAH, I, I LIKE YOUR INSTINCTS. AND I DO HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION THOUGH, IS THESE PHOTOS ARE SHOWING US REFLECTING USAGE OF THAT STANDARD OR NOT REFLECTING BOTH, BOTH . SO, AND ACTUALLY IT'S KIND OF FUNNY 'CAUSE OKAY, WAIT, LET ME GET MY MOUSE. HERE WE [01:30:01] GO. OKAY. UM, SO THIS ONE ON, WHAT IS, UM, MY LEFT, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S ON YOUR LEFT. MM-HMM. COMPUTER LEFT. SO, UM, THAT ONE IS, DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE THE TWO INCH INSET. UM, AND THEN YOU'VE GOT THE ONE ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE DOES HAVE THE INSET MM-HMM. . UM, AND THEN THE ONE IN THE MIDDLE HAS BOTH. SO THAT LITTLE TINY LONG WINDOW HAS IT, AND THEN THE OTHER ONE NEXT TO IT DOES NOT MM-HMM. . UM, SO YOU HAVE A KIND OF A COMBINATION GOING ON TO SEE, UM, THIS HAS BEEN ON MY RADAR SINCE IT WAS SUGGESTED, AND I HAPPEN TO BE TRAVELING A LITTLE BIT IN SOME CITIES WHERE THERE WERE A LOT OF MULTI-FAMILY PROJECTS. SO I'VE BEEN DOING LIKE A LOT OF, LIKE, TRYING TO FIGURE THIS ONE OUT. AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT AN ARCHITECT. I'M NOT, THAT'S NOT MY EXPERTISE. UM, SO FOR MOST OF IT I DEFERRED TO THE ARCHITECTS. BUT THIS ONE I JUST WAS, I JUST SAW SO MANY EXAMPLES WHERE THERE WAS, IT DIDN'T CONFORM WHERE I FELT LIKE, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. UM, OKAY. WELL, UM, I AGREE WITH YOU, HEATHER, THAT I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS NOT BE TRIMMED OUT KIND OF CAME FROM. I'M JUST CURIOUS BECAUSE I MEAN, THESE ALL ARE EXAMPLES OF WINDOWS THAT ARE NOT TRIMMED OUT, RIGHT? MM-HMM. , AND TO ME, THIS STYLE IS WHAT WE, I WOULD WANT TO AVOID . MM-HMM. . I LIKE THE TRIM. I THINK IT ADDS, UH, ARTICULATION AND DEPTH AND INTEREST TO THE BUILDINGS. MM-HMM. , I, I WOULD SAY THIS IS NOT WHAT I WOULD PREFER. I WOULD PREFER THEM TO BE RECESSED AND TRIMMED OUT. MM-HMM. , THAT'S, YEAH. AND I MEAN, WE CAN DO ANY COMBINATION. WE COULD ALSO REQUIRE RECESSED WINDOWS AND THEN JUST LEAVE OFF THE PART ABOUT THEM BEING TRIMMED OUT AND JUST NOT JUST BE SILENT ON WHETHER THEY CAN BE TRIMMED OUT OR NOT, BUT TO REQUIRE THAT THOSE WINDOWS ARE RECESSED, YOU KNOW, WITH, WITH THE, OH WAIT, DARREN IS, EXCUSE ME. GONNA GO NEXT AND THEN WE'LL GET TO ROGER. WELL, JUST PIGGYBACKING HEIDI'S QUESTION, WAS THIS A TOPIC THAT HAD LIKE A STRONG CONSENSUS IN THE ARCHITECTS? WAS IT KIND OF ONE PERSON PUTTING THIS FORWARD? OR HOW STRONG WAS THIS RECOMMENDATION TO DO, TO GO TRIM LIST WITH THE, THE WINDOWS THERE? WELL, SO THIS ONE WASN'T ONE THAT WE DISCUSSED VERBALLY. IT CAME FROM AN EMAIL WHEN I WAS CONFIRMING WITH THEM THAT LIKE, THIS IS WHAT I HAVE FROM YOU GUYS. AND THEY RESPONDED AND SAID THAT YOU SHOULD REQUIRE THIS. AND I SAID, WELL, WE CAN'T DO SHOULDS IN HERE. IT'S BLACK OR WHITE, IT'S SHELL OR NOT AT ALL. AND SO THEY SAID, OKAY, LEAVE IT IN AS A SHELL. AND SO THAT'S THE OTHER THING WHERE I WAS KIND OF LIKE, WELL, , UM, YOU KNOW, I I, WHEN I, WHEN I ASKED ABOUT REASONING, I THINK THE IDEA ABOUT THE TRIMMING IS THAT LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S NOT GOOD TRIM, THAT IT MIGHT NOT LOOK NICE LATER ON. UM, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING, YOU WANNA KEEP IT SIMPLE. AND, AND I, I KIND OF DISAGREE WITH THAT. I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF SAYING, OH, WELL IT'S AFFORDABLE HOUSING, SO WE DON'T WANNA HAVE ANY, YOU KNOW, BELLS OR WHISTLES ON THERE. YEAH. I MEAN, I, AND I DO UNDERSTAND THE ARGUMENT THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, DOWN THE ROAD THAT THERE IS GONNA BE MAINTENANCE INVOLVED AND THAT SOMETIMES IT'S VERY HARD TO MAKE YOUR PROPERTY OWNERS FOLLOW THROUGH WITH IT AND CODE. YOU CANNOT DEPEND THAT CODE ENFORCEMENT IS GOING TO BE WHAT'S GONNA CREATE GOOD DESIGN DOWN THE ROAD. IT'S JUST HAVING HAD TO DO CODE ENFORCEMENT AND CURRENT PLANNING, IT'S, YOU JUST CAN'T DEPEND ON THAT. IT'S VERY HARD TO DO. AND THERE'S TOO MANY . THERE'S JUST TOO MUCH. SO IT'S, IT'S NOT THE THING THAT YOU CAN RELY ON FOR THE FUTURE. AND SO IF IT'S NOT DEFINED, WE RELY ON THE PROJECT ARCHITECT TO KIND OF MAKE THAT DECISION PROJECT BY PROJECT BASIS. YEAH. IF WE DON'T, IT JUST MEANS IT'S NOT, IT'S, IT JUST MEANS IT. LIKE, SO IF YOU SAID, OKAY, I THINK WE'LL DO THE RECESSED WINDOW. WE'LL REQUIRE A RECESSED WINDOW, BUT WE'RE NOT GONNA SAY YOU CAN'T TRIM IT OUT, THEN IT'S UP TO THE DESIGNER WHETHER THEY WANNA PUT TRIM ON IT. ROGER. YEAH. I, I THINK THERE'S, I MEAN, WHEN YOU GET TO SIMPLE PROJECTS, WINDOWS ARE PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH WINDOWS, MASSIVE WALL AND MASSIVE WINDOWS AND HOW THEY'RE ARTICULATED. SO IF YOU COULD, IF WE COULD SAY IT THERE, WINDOWS ARE IMPORTANT TO BE ARTICULATED. MM-HMM. , UH, AND, AND TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, LIKE PROTRUDING OR RECESSING OR WHATEVER THE OPTIONS ARE. BUT, BUT, UH, I MEAN THE, THE, UH, THE THEATER DISTRICT ARE MOSTLY PROTRUDING SILLS AND WINDOWS. MM-HMM. . AND I THINK IT WORKS, IT'S A, THEY JUST PUT STYROFOAM AND SUCKER OVER IT, BUT IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT EXPENSIVE TO DO, BUT THE [01:35:01] ART, THE ARTICULATION PART IS IMPORTANT TO EMPHASIZE HOW THEY DO IT, I THINK IS MORE OF A DESIGN QUESTION. ALRIGHT. DO WE HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS BEFORE WE MOVE INTO WHETHER OR NOT TO KEEP OR REMOVE WELL, AND THIS IS NOT IN THERE CURRENTLY. SO TO ADD OR REMOVE OR TO ADD A PORTION THEREOF? MM-HMM. . OKAY. UH, LET'S GO. STARTING WITH JESSICA ALL THE WAY DOWN, DO YOU WANNA KEEP IT REMOVED OR ADD, ADD BACK IN? I'M INCLINED TO KEEP IT REMOVED. SO DO NOT, OR STAY SILENT AS YOU SAID ON THE NOTION OF RECESSED ON THE NOTION OF TRIMMING. AND I ALSO DO NOT THINK WE NEED TO BAR WHITE FIBERGLASS. I THINK ALL OF THAT SHOULD BE UP TO DESIGNER ARCHITECT DISCRETION. EXCELLENT. ROGER? I THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING ABOUT THE, THE VALUE OF ARTICULATING THE WINDOW STATEMENT IN THE BUILDING FACADE. UM, I ALSO AGREE WITH KEEPING IT REMOVED OR REMAINING SILENT. AND I ALSO DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE OF FIBERGLASS. UM, I THINK WE SHOULD KEEP IN THAT THE WINDOWS SHOULD BE RECESSED BUT NOT, UM, REMAIN SILENT ON WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE TRIMMED OUT OR NOT. AND I LIKE, UM, NOT ALLOWING WHITE FIBERGLASS WINDOWS AS I THINK THEY LOOK CHEAP. AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT GUIDANCE, THIS IS JUST GUIDANCE FOR PROJECTS WITH STUCCO, LIKE CEMENT, PLASTER, EIFS. SO WE'RE GONNA BE PRESCRIPTIVE ON THE RECESSING OF THAT. UM, YOU KNOW, I'M INCLINED TO LEAVE IT REMOVED AND MAKE BROADER COMMENTARY ON WINDOW DESIGN THROUGHOUT AND NOT MAKE IT MATERIAL SPECIFIC LIKE THIS. MAYBE THAT'S SHORTSIGHTED, BUT YEAH, I'M INCLINED TO KINDA LEAVE THIS GUIDANCE OUT FOR NOW. OKAY. DOES THAT GIVE YOU THE DIRECTION YOU WERE LOOKING FOR? MM-HMM. . EXCELLENT. OKAY. SO I'M LEAVING IT OUT AS WHERE WE'RE GOING. OKAY. IS THIS THE SPOT TO TALK ABOUT WINDOW SHADES WHILE WE'RE ON WINDOW DESIGN OR YEAH, LET'S DO IT. GO AHEAD. I DON'T LIKE THEM. I UNDERSTAND THE, UH, ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATION, BUT I THINK STYLISTICALLY MANDATING THEM IS OUT OF PLACE FOR PETALUMA. IF A DESIGNER WISHES TO INCLUDE THEM, THEY CAN, BUT I'M NOT INCLINED TO REQUIRE THEM. ALRIGHT. AND DO WE HAVE OTHER CONSENSUS AROUND OR OTHER COMMENTS AROUND WINDOW SHADES? NO, I THINK THAT THEY ARE JUST AN OP ONE OF THE OPTIONS THOUGH, I DON'T THINK. RIGHT. WE WERE GONNA REQUIRE THEM ON EVERY PROJECT. I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS OPTIONAL TO DO OR ON, UNLESS IT'S A REQUIREMENT. RIGHT. OKAY. SO WE, WE DIDN'T, IT WASN'T STATED THAT WE WERE GONNA REQUIRE THEM, RIGHT? NO, IT IS, OH IT IS, IT IS A REQUIREMENT FOR, LET ME READ IT. ALRIGHT. SO THAT YOU GET THE FULL, I THOUGHT IT WAS ONE OF THE OPTIONS. OPTIONS. PAGE 17. OKAY. ONE. THANK YOU. HERE WE GO. PAGE 17. OKAY. SO WINDOW SHADES. SO ORIENTATION TUNED SHADING DEVICES WHICH INCLUDE NON MEMBRANE AWNINGS, CANOPIES FINS, OR SCREENS. AND THAT SHARE SIMILAR ARCHITECTURAL CHARACTERISTICS TO THE FACADE SHALL BE INSTALLED ON THE SOUTH AND WEST FACING WINDOWS WITH ORIENTATIONS THAT EFFECTIVELY SHADE GLASS FROM SUN FROM MAY THROUGH SEPTEMBER FROM THE HOURS OF NOON TO 5:00 PM OKAY. I GET IT. I I THINK I, CAN I SAY SOMETHING? GO, GO AHEAD. I'M IN FAVOR OF THAT BECAUSE I THINK IN THIS ERA OF, UH MM-HMM. TEMPERATURES INCREASING AND, UM, AIR CONDITIONING BECAUSE BECOMING MORE EXPENSIVE AND BECAUSE THESE ARE GONNA BE, UM, UNITS THAT, UM, ARE GONNA BE AFFORDABLE LIVING UNITS THAT I DON'T KNOW IF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE GONNA HAVE ALL THAT MUCH MONEY TO BE SPENDING ON AIR CONDITIONING AND I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE THEM EVERY ADVANTAGE SO THAT THEY COULD REMAIN COOL IN THEIR HOUSE. AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM UM, BE BEING TOO HOT IN HEAT WAVES UP JUST IN SEATTLE NOT TOO LONG AGO. SO I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE THEM EVERY ADVANTAGE TO REMAIN COOL IN THEIR HOMES. YEAH. I WOULD ALSO BE INCLINED TO AGREE WITH THAT AS WELL. UH, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THERE'S GONNA BE TREE COVERAGE. THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THERE'S GONNA BE ANOTHER BUILDING THAT MIGHT SHADE YOU FROM THE SUN FOR A GOOD CHUNK OF THE DAY. AND HAVING LIVED IN MULTIPLE APARTMENTS AROUND [01:40:01] HERE, UH, WITH NO COVERAGE WHATSOEVER, UH, IT'S, IT'S A REAL PROBLEM IF THERE'S POOR INSULATION AND POOR AIRFLOW AND YOU'VE GOT A SUPER HEATED APARTMENT AND YOU'RE TRYING TO KEEP YOUR BUDGET LIMITED. SO, UH, UNLESS THERE'S ANOTHER DESIGN AESTHETIC THAT ACCOMPLISHES THE SAME, SAME END RESULT, I WOULD WANT TO KEEP IT IN THERE. YEAH, GO AHEAD. I WAS JUST GONNA SAY, DO WE FEEL LIKE, UH, THE AREA ABOUT WINDOW SHADES, THAT WITH THE LANGUAGE ABOUT WHAT MATERIALS WE'VE KIND OF EXCLUDED THE LOWEST QUALITY MATERIALS WITH THIS DESCRIPTION, YOU KNOW, CONCERN OF SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE NOT HOLD UP FOR A LONG TIME OR HAVE ISSUES WITH APPEARANCE? I MEAN, WERE THE MATERIALS SELECTED KIND OF BASED TO ELIMINATE SOME OF THE WELL, THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BE VINYL 'CAUSE WE'VE ELIMINATED VINYL FROM, YOU KNOW, FACADE MATERIALS EXCEPT THE VINYL WINDOWS AND THAT, OR MAYBE WE'RE NOT SURE BECAUSE WE'RE MISSING TWO COMMISSIONERS, SO WE DUNNO WHERE THEY'RE GONNA LAND. UM, AND THEN THE, UM, BUT THE, THE, THEY ARE NON MEMBRANE, SO THAT'S LIKE YOUR CANVAS BASICALLY. OKAY. UM, SO THAT, AND THAT DOES DEGRADE VERY QUICKLY AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SPECIFIC. SO IT TYPICALLY BE METAL WOOD, AND YOU CAN SEE ACTUALLY THERE'S, UM, THIS PICTURE IN THE MIDDLE, UM, IF YOU LOOK THE WINDOWS IN THAT ONE LAYER ACTUALLY PROTECTED BY SORT OF A, THAT PROTRUDING BAND THAT GOES AROUND. SO IT'S RIGHT INTO THE ARCHITECTURAL STYLE, UM, WHICH I LIKE THE BEST . YEAH. I I I DON'T MIND THAT MIDDLE ONE, BUT LOOKING AT THIS TOP LEFT AND THE GREAT ON THE TOP RIGHT, I FEEL LIKE THAT DOESN'T GET YOU COOLING. I, YOU KNOW, I, I UNDERSTAND THE INTENT, BUT THAT SLATS OF METAL ON THE TOP LEFT ISN'T GONNA GIVE YOU A WHOLE LOT OF SHADE THAT OFFSETS YOUR NEED FOR, FOR COOLING. MM-HMM. . AND, AND TO THAT POINT, WHEN WE SAY EFFECTIVELY SHADE GLASS FROM SUN, I MEAN, WHAT KIND OF METRIC IS THAT? 'CAUSE YEAH, SOME OF THESE ARE BARS THAT OBVIOUSLY AREN'T STOPPING THE SUN. YEAH. AND SOME OF, LIKE I SAID, THIS ONE DEFINITELY NEEDS SOME TIGHTENING UP. SO THERE, YOU KNOW, THERE WOULD DEFINITELY, IF, IF THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WANNA KEEP IN, THEN I WOULD WANT TO GO IN AND KIND OF ADD A LITTLE BIT IN TERMS OF LIKE DEPTH AND PER, YOU KNOW, THE, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S PERMEABILITY IS THE RIGHT WORD FOR THIS, BUT I THINK YOU PROBABLY GET THE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, OPACITY. YEAH, THERE YOU GO. YEAH, I THINK IF WE PUT SOMETHING IN THERE ABOUT OPACITY, I'D BE SUPPORTIVE. SO IT DOES THE INTENDED FUNCTION. UM, AND AGAIN, UH, AND OBVIOUSLY I'M EXPECTING YOU TO HAVE AN ENCYCLOPEDIA HERE, OTHER JURISDICTIONS, IS THIS SOMETHING WE SEE THIS KIND OF DETAIL IN SHADING? UM, YOU KNOW, THESE, I, THIS WASN'T, THIS ACTUALLY CAME FROM ANNE ED ADMINISTER WAS WHO RECOMMENDED IT. SO THIS DIDN'T COME FROM ANOTHER JURISDICTION, BUT TWO OUT OF THREE PHOTOS IN HERE ARE NEWER CONSTRUCTION BUILDINGS IN BERKELEY. AND I SUSPECT THAT IT WASN'T DONE 'CAUSE THE DEVELOPER WANTED TO. SO I COULD BE WRONG THOUGH. COULD BE WRONG, BUT, UM, BUT I JUST HAPPENED TO NOTICE THEM AND I WAS LIKE, OH, THAT'S WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT . SO YEAH. I SEE, I SEE THEM IN MILPITAS WHEN IT TALKS ABOUT FACADE ARTICULATION, IT REFERENCES SHADING. BUT YEAH, I, I THINK I'M GENERALLY SUPPORTIVE IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT AN OPACITY METRIC TO TIGHTEN IT UP OUT. OUT OF CURIOSITY, COULD WE, NOT TO STIR THIS ANY FURTHER, BUT PART OF ME DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE NOT REQUIRING A SHADE, OVERALL SHADE REQUIREMENT FOR THE DEVELOPER COMING IN FOR THE SIZE OF THE BUILDING AND THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT KIND OF FACADE OVERHANGS, THEY COULD BE APPLYING WAYS TO ACHIEVE IT. SO I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, WOULDN'T THIS BE A, WOULDN'T THERE BE A BETTER OPTION TO HAVE A STRICT REQUIREMENT FOR SHADE PROVIDED ON THE SIZE OF BUILDING AND THEN PROVIDE A BANK OF SORTS OF MATERIALS AND OPTIONS THAT THEY COULD CHOOSE FROM IN TERMS OF HOW THEY PROVIDE THAT SHADE RATHER THAN TRYING TO GET INTO A A GRANULAR METRIC? UM, I, I HAVE TO THINK THAT ONE THROUGH AND I ONLY BRING IT UP BECAUSE I THINK ONE THING WE HAVE TO KEEP KEEPING IN MIND IS THAT WE ARE LARGELY TALKING ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS. THERE IS A MISNOMER AND STIGMA AROUND THESE DEVELOPMENTS THAT ALWAYS ENDS UP WITH, OH, THEY'RE GONNA BE SIMPLER LOOKING BUILDINGS. THEY'RE GOING TO BE GENERALLY UGLIER OR CONSIDERED UGLIER. THEY'RE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THE METAL SLATS WITH THE, I GUESS THE CHAIN WIRE GOING THROUGH. I CAN'T FULLY SEE WITH THAT IMAGE, UH, AND NOT HAVE THE ATTENTION TO DETAIL. I THINK SINCE [01:45:01] THIS IS BOTH A FUNCTIONAL ELEMENT OF DESIGN AND ALSO A, AN AESTHETIC ELEMENT, HOW WE, HOW WE DO THESE KIND OF OVERHANGS THAT KIND OF LOOK LIKE BALCONIES MIGHT MATTER A LOT FOR FOLKS. MM-HMM. HAVING A BANK OF OPTIONS THAT LOOKS KIND OF, WELL THIS LOOKS PETALUMA, LOOKS WELL FOR LACK OF BETTER TERMINOLOGY, LOOKS NICER THAN SOME THEN A DEVELOPER MIGHT BE WILLING TO PROVIDE, I THINK CAN HELP US ENSURE THAT WE'RE NOT JUST SAYING, YEAH, PROVIDE AN OVERHANG, IT'S ENOUGH SHADE AND IT LOOKS LIKE THAT TOP RIGHT ONE OVER THERE IS ON THE OFF CHANCE THAT YEAH, THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT COULD DO ANYTHING, BUT MAYBE IT DOES. UH, I WOULD JUST LIKE US TO MOVE AWAY FROM THIS LOGIC OF SIMPLIFIED DESIGNS FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND REALLY DIG INTO THE IDEA OF IT SHOULD, NO ONE SHOULD FEEL LIKE THEY'RE BEING PENALIZED 'CAUSE THEY MOVED INTO AN AFFORDABLE UNIT. MM-HMM. OR LIKE THEIR UNIT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS. MM-HMM. . AND TO STRENGTHEN THAT, YOU SEE THE MIDDLE PICTURE, YOU WONDER IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS AT PLAY WHEN IT COMES TO FUNCTION BECAUSE THE MIDDLE ROW OF WINDOWS DOESN'T HAVE SHADES BECAUSE THE BUILDING PROTRUDES UP. SO. YEP. I I'D LIKE THE IDEA OF GO, OH SORRY ROGER, WERE YOU ON? SORRY. I, I LIKE THE IDEA OF, UM, GIVING A BANK OF OPTIONS. I THINK THAT ALLOWS FOR MORE FLEXIBILITY IN DESIGN. I'D, I'D BE CURIOUS TO UNDERSTAND IF THERE IS SOME, UM, SHADE STUDY METRIC WE COULD USE. BECAUSE IF YOU'RE ON THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING, THAT WOULD REQUIRE MM-HMM. THE SHADING, BUT YOU'VE GOT A TALL ENOUGH BUILDING NEARBY THAT'S SHADING YOU MOST OF THOSE HOURS ANYHOW. MAYBE YOU CAN LIFT THAT REQUIREMENT AND SAVE THE MONEY AND PUT IT TO OTHER BEAU BEAUTIFICATION AND FACADE IMPROVEMENTS INSTEAD OF SHADES THAT NO ONE NEEDS. UM, I'D ALSO BE CURIOUS ABOUT WHETHER REVERTING TO, UH, COATED WINDOWS ON THOSE, UH, UH, SIDES OF THE BUILDING THAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT FROM A HEATING AND COOLING PERSPECTIVE OR COOLING PERSPECTIVE COULD BE SWAPPED IN. LIKE, AGAIN, HAVING THAT BANK OF OPTIONS TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S BOTH ATTRACTIVE AND PROVIDING SOME OF THAT, UM, SUSTAINABILITY AND COOLING THAT, THAT WE'RE SEEKING. OKAY. ROGER? YEAH, I TEND TO, UH, AGREE WITH SOME, SOME PERFORMANCE STANDARD AS OPPOSED TO A SOLUTION STANDARD. UM, COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS THAT HAVE A LOT MORE GLASS. SO THERE'S, THEY HAVE ENERGY CODES THAT REQUIRE SUNSHADE SCREENING ACCORDING TO SUN ORIENTATION. SO THERE'S MORE OF A PERFORMANCE BASED ON INTERIOR HEAT LOAD. MM-HMM. , THERE'S GOTTA BE A WAY OF SAYING IF YOU'RE HAVE A WEST EXPOSURE, SOUTH EXPOSURE, YOU NEED TO DO CERTAIN THINGS TO REDUCE THAT LOAD. UH, AND NOT, NOT, I MEAN, I THINK, I AGREE THAT THE UPPER LEFT IMAGE IS CRAZY. IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT DOES ANYTHING. UH, THE MIDDLE BUILDING LOOKS LIKE A LITTLE MORE COPACETIC WITH THE DESIGN, UH, AND THE ONE ON THE RIGHT. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT DOES, BUT, SO I, I THINK A PERFORMANCE THAT THEY CAN INTERPRET IN A NUMBER OF WAYS AND ACHIEVE WHAT YOU WANT IS BETTER. SO I WILL SPEND SOME TIME AND, UM, SEE WHAT WE HAVE. 'CAUSE I SUSPECT THAT THERE MAY BE OVERLAPPING THINGS IN CAL GREEN AS WELL, UM, BECAUSE THERE ARE REQUIREMENTS IN THERE ABOUT ENERGY CONSERVATION. SO, UM, LET ME SEE WHAT I CAN FIGURE OUT ON THAT. THANK YOU. I THINK WITH THIS WE CAN MOVE TO THE NEXT TOPIC. UM, OKAY. HOLD, LET'S GET BACK TO HERE. LIST. OKAY. TREES. OKAY. SO, UM, THE, THE BIG QUESTION, LIKE I SAID, UM, I JUST WANNA GO AHEAD AND CHECK IN ON THE REQUIREMENTS THAT WE HAVE. AGAIN, IT'S REITERATED FROM SPAR OF ONE TREE FOR 500 SQUARE FEET OF OPEN SPACE, UM, THAT WAS CODIFIED. AND THEN THE ONE BIG QUESTION IS, UM, I THINK WE'VE RESOLVED A LOT OF THE CONCERNS THAT WE HEARD FROM PAC WITH THE SHADING AS OPPOSED TO, YOU KNOW, ONE TREE PER A HUNDRED SQUARE FEET. MM-HMM. . UM, AND THEN, SO THAT LAST STICKING POINT REALLY THAT, UM, [01:50:01] I WANTED TO CHECK IN ON IS THE, UM, THE TREE BORDER BETWEEN RESIDENTIAL MM-HMM. EXISTING SINGLE, SORRY, EXISTING SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL AND PROPOSED NEW MULTIFAMILY. SO THE WAY THAT THAT WAS WRITTEN SAYS THAT YOU NEED TO PLANT ONE TREE EVERY 30 FEET AND THEN, UM, THAT, BUT THAT THE CANOPY OF THE TREE CANNOT BE CLOSER THAN 10 FEET TO A BUILDING, OTHERWISE NO TREE. UM, SO DOES THAT STANDARD, FIRST OF ALL MAKE SENSE? 'CAUSE I KNOW I DID NOT PROVIDE AN ILLUSTRATION ON IT. THERE WE GO. SO, AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE STANDARDS, IT'S ON PAGE 13, STARTING LINE 3 52. SO UNDER LANDSCAPING SEVEN B AND IT'S NUMBER THREE. MM-HMM. , I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SAYING THIS, BUT I THINK DARREN WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE TREE STANDARD. I WAS, I WAS TEMPTED TO SAY I'VE GOT NOTHING ON THIS. UM, SO THE, WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENSIBLE SPACE, WE'RE TALKING MORE OF A FIVE FOOT AREA WHEN WE'RE KEEPING VEGETATION AWAY FROM HOMES WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENSIBLE SPACE. RIGHT. UM, YOU KNOW, MY INSTINCT IS TO NOT INCLUDE THIS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT IS PROHIBITIVE TO PLANTING SO MANY KINDS OF TREES THAT WE REALLY WANT TO SEE PLANTED. MM-HMM. , UM, TO PROVIDE ANY EFFECTIVE SHADE AND COOLING AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. IF WE KEEP THIS IN, IF IT'S DECIDED THAT, YOU KNOW, WE NEED THIS FOR FIRE PROTECTION OR NUISANCE PROTECTION, I, I GUESS ACTUALLY A QUESTION BEFORE THAT, I MEAN, COULDN'T THIS FAULT A MAINTENANCE OF THE PROPERTY OWNER, LIKE TRIM IT TO BE FIVE FOOT DEFENSIBLE SPACE, KEEP WITH FIRE CODE? MM-HMM. . MM-HMM. . YEAH. RATHER THAN, UM, YEAH. I MEAN, AND AGAIN, THIS IS ANOTHER ONE. LIKE, I MEAN, I'VE TALKED TO TREE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE, WELL, AS LONG AS THE TREE'S NOT OVERHANGING, IT'S FINE. AND THEN I'VE HEARD 10 FEET FROM, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE OFFICIAL THING. UM, AND AGAIN, YOU CAN'T DEPEND ON SOMEBODY DOING THE MAINTENANCE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IS, AGAIN, ONE OF THOSE THINGS, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THAT. UM, I MEAN, WE HOPE AND WE, IT'S THE EXPECTATION, BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD, YOU COULD SPEND, YOU COULD HAVE AN ENTIRE STAFF DOING ONLY CODE ENFORCEMENT AND NOT HIT IT ALL OF EVERYTHING. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. WELL, AND, AND THAT'S A GOOD POINT. SO, I MEAN, IT SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE TALKING MORE SAFETY THAN DESIGN WITH THIS CONSIDERATION, IN WHICH CASE, I MEAN, SOME OF THESE OTHER STANDARDS I DON'T THINK WE'RE AS MUCH, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT A DA AND SOME OF THOSE WE'RE NOT THINKING OF BAKING SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS IN HERE AS MUCH MM-HMM. , I MEAN, ISN'T IT KIND OF MOST APPLICABLE TO SAY? WELL, YEAH, I MEAN THERE IS SAFETY FIRE MARSHAL STANDARDS, YOU KNOW, AND WHETHER THAT'S A BURDEN ON CODE ENFORCEMENT, BUT THAT'S KIND OF HOW THESE THINGS SHOULD WORK. NOT, YEAH. UM, SO I MEAN, SO THE QUESTION I GUESS COMES DOWN TO, WOULD YOU WANNA INCLUDE, REMOVE THE WHOLE THING, LIKE NO ONE TREE FOR 30 FEET? OR IS IT JUST REMOVING THE BUFFER REQUIREMENT? I MEAN, I LIKE THE, I LIKE THE ONE TREE PER 30 FEET. I LIKE BREAKING UP AND HAVING MATURE TREES ALONG A BARRIER LIKE THAT. UM, I JUST THINK THE BUFFER REQUIREMENT OF CLOSER THAN 10 FEET, AGAIN, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT FALL TO KIND OF HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE AND BUILDING CODES. OKAY. RATHER THAN TRYING TO BE PRESCRIPTIVE. HERE IS MY INSTINCT. I AGREE. . SO THE, THE ASSUMPTION IS THERE'S A, UM, NON-PRIVATE AREA BETWEEN THE RESIDENTIAL AND THE MULTIFAMILY BECAUSE IT IS A PRIVATE AREA. IT'S, IT WOULD BE A BUFFER ON THE PROPERTY. IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE A COMMON AREA OR WOULD IT BE A PRIVATE PATIO? UM, IT COULD BE EITHER. UM, THE IDEA IS THAT IT'S THE IN-BETWEEN, LET ME SEE IF I HAVE A DECENT PICTURE. WELL, THIS ISN'T A, UM, WELL IF, IF IT'S A PRIVATE PATIO, YOU DON'T CONTROL THE TREE. AND THAT'S, I DON'T THINK YOU WANT THAT. SO THERE OUGHT TO BE A, A PUBLIC, UH, A COMMON AREA BETWEEN THE PRIVATE PATIO AND THE RESIDENTIAL OF A CERTAIN DISTANCE. 'CAUSE OTHERWISE YOU HAVE, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY MAINTENANCE OF A TREE. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OF THE TREE. YOU HAVE NO, YOU HAVEN'T ACHIEVED ANYTHING. SO THE TREE WOULD BE PLANTED ON THE MULTIFAMILY PROPERTY, BUT WITHIN THE BUFFER ZONE. UM, SO THE MULTIFAMILY PROPERTY WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAINTAINING THE TREE AS, AS LONG AS IT'S IN A COMMON AREA, NOT IN A PRIVATE PATIO. UM, [01:55:01] WELL, IT, I MEAN, UH, THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE WRITTEN IN TO SAY THAT, THAT, THAT IT, THAT THE FIVE FOOT BUFFER COULD NOT BE PART OF A PRIVATE OPEN SPACE. SO THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE WRITTEN INTO THE CODE THAT WAY. BECAUSE SOMEBODY COULD FEE CONCEIVABLY SAY, OKAY. UM, I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN DRAW ON THE FLY, BUT, UM, I WISH I HAD A CHILD. OH, I NEED A WHITEBOARD. YEAH. UM, BUT IF HERE'S YOUR PROPERTY. NO, THAT'S, THAT'S NOT GONNA GO WELL. IT'S JUST INSERTS SOME SQUARES. HERE WE GO. THIS IS NOT IDEAL, BUT, SO IF HERE'S YOUR PROPERTY. YEAH. OH, WE ARE NOT, WE'RE NOT SAYING WHAT AREN'T, AREN'T YOU GUYS SAYING THAT? THAT'S JUST NOT RIGHT. OKAY. WAIT. UM, YOU SHARE, HERE WE GO. ALL RIGHT. TA-DA. ALL RIGHT. SO HERE'S YOUR PROPERTY AND LET'S JUST MAKE IT GREEN 'CAUSE THAT'S HOW WE ROLL. UM, AND THEN SO HERE'S YOUR, HERE'S YOUR SINGLE FAMILY PARCEL RIGHT HERE. AND THEN MAYBE THERE'S ANOTHER ONE RIGHT HERE. OKAY. AND THIS IS NOT TO SCALE, BY THE WAY, JUST FOR THE RECORD, . OOPS. I'LL HAVE, YOU KNOW, PAINT IS KNOWN FOR ITS SCALING FEATURES. . OKAY. SO SAY THAT'S YOUR FIVE FOOT BUFFER RIGHT NOW, IF YOU'RE BUILDING, SAY YOUR BUILDING IS RIGHT HERE BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING RIGHT UP TO THE BUFFER AND, OR YOU KNOW, EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT, EVEN IF YOU'RE GOING BACK HERE AND LET'S JUST MAKE SURE THAT'S A BUILDING. SO THAT'S OUR BUILDING. AND THEN SAY THEY DECIDE TO MAKE THESE LITTLE PATIOS AND SAY, OKAY, HERE'S YOUR, HERE'S YOUR PRIVATE OPEN SPACE FOR EACH OF THESE UNITS. SO YOU COULD CONCEIVABLY HAVE THIS BUILDING WHERE, YOU KNOW, EACH OF THESE ARE A UNIT AND THEY EACH HAVE A LITTLE BACKYARD. UM, SO THAT IS A CONCEIVABLE SITE DESIGN. AND SO THAT WOULD BE A, THAT BLUE LINE'S A FENCE. SO THE BLUE IS THE OTHER PROPERTY. AND THIS ORANGE RIGHT HERE IS YOUR BUFFER. NO, THE, THE THIN BLUE LINE IS PER PERPENDICULAR TO THE ORANGE IS A FENCE. THE, THOSE WOULD BE THE, THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN THE UNITS AND YEAH, THEY COULD BE FENCES BECAUSE THEY'RE SEPARATING PRIVATE OPEN SPACE. SO HERE'S YOUR UNIT. SO HOW DO YOU, AND IT'S BACKYARD. HOW DO YOU MAINTAIN THOSE TREES? SO IT WOULD BE, UM, IF IT'S IN THE UNIT, THEN I THINK IT DEPENDS ON HOW THAT'S SET UP. I, YOU KNOW, IT IT, IT MAY BE THAT THE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE THAT TREE IN THEIR EVERY 30 FEET HAVE TO MAINTAIN IT. UM, IT'S THAT WON'T THAT, THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN. IT WILL. OKAY. THEY WILL, IT WON'T BE CONSISTENT. IT WON'T DO THE JOB, IT WON'T GIVE THE RESIDENTIAL ANY PROTECTION. IT'S, IT'S, IT'S NOT, SO WHAT YOU'RE ASKING IS TO, IF THAT ORANGE LINE WAS PUBLIC WAS COMMON AREA THAT HAD MAINTENANCE ACCESS TO IT, THAT I AGREE WITH YOU. BUT IF IT BECOMES PART OF A PRIVATE PATIO, IT DOESN'T WORK. OKAY. SO WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE IS FOR US TO ADD IT IN SO THAT IT'S SPECIFICALLY REQUIRES THAT BUFFER AREA TO BE A PUBLIC AND COMMON AREA. YEAH. MAINTAIN COMMON. AND, OKAY, I JUST PIGGYBACKING ON THAT REALLY QUICK. MM-HMM. OUT OF CURIOSITY, WHEN YOU'RE MAKING THIS, OR WHEN YOU WERE DISCUSSING SETTING THAT UP WITH THE FIVE FOOT BUFFER, I KNOW YOU WENT THROUGH, I MEAN THE DOCUMENTATION YOU PROVIDED THAT COVERED HOW MANY ARCHITECTS, I THINK IT WAS WHAT, 17 DIFFERENT, UH, INDIVIDUALS OF ONE LEVEL ANOTHER THAT WERE ENGAGED IN THIS. DID ANY OF THEM RAISE THE ISSUE OF THE BUFFER POPPING UP OR HOW YOU'D ACCESS THE THERE WAS THE, I THINK IT WAS, I FORGET WHICH AFFORDABLE HOUSING DEVELOPER, THEY RAISED A CONCERN ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING A MULTI-FAMILY PROJECT THAT'S ADJACENT TO SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL. AND THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SPACE REQUIRED FOR THE BUFFER. YEAH. BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PLANNING TO HAVE THAT. SO, UM, OH, SO THAT WENT THE OTHER WAY WITH THEIR CONCERN. YEAH. AND, AND THEY HAD CONCERNS ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE SITE AND, AND WE TALKED ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT [02:00:01] WAS, YOU KNOW, SO IS THIS GONNA MAKE THE PROJECT INFEASIBLE? BUT THEN THAT'S WHERE THE CONCESSIONS AND THE WAIVERS COME IN AND WE DETERMINED THAT THERE WAS ENOUGH DESIRE TO HAVE THE BUFFER, UM, FROM WHAT WE WERE HEARING. AND THERE WASN'T ANY PUSHBACK ON IT THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT IF FOR THAT PARTICULAR PROJECT WHERE THERE ISN'T ROOM ON THE SITE, THEN THAT'S WHERE THEY WOULD USE THEIR BONE, THEIR WAIVERS AND CONCESSIONS. SO. ALRIGHT. UH, JESSICA, I THINK YOU HAD A QUESTION EARLIER. OKAY. UM, I THINK THIS IS A GOOD TIME FOR EVERYONE TO GO, EVERYONE TO GO THROUGH WITH HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THE CURRENT SITUATION, ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHAT, UH, WAS JUST RAISED REGARDING PUBLIC ACCESS. SO I'M GONNA START WITH YOU AGAIN DARREN, AND WE'LL GO DOWN AND JUST TO CONFIRM IF I'VE GOT A BOATLOAD OF OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT TREES, WE SAVE THAT UNTIL WE ADDRESS THESE CORE QUESTIONS FROM STAFF. YEAH. WELL, SO LET'S, LET'S NAVIGATE THROUGH THIS ISSUE. LET'S GET THIS AND WE CAN DO QUESTIONS ABOUT TREES RIGHT AFTER. OKAY. MY FAVORITE, UM, GREAT. SO I APPRECIATE WHAT ROGER'S SAYING. I READ INTO THIS, ASSUMING THIS WOULD BE A PLANTING AREA THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE MAINTAINED BY SOME LIKE MAINTENANCE PROPERTY WIDE MAINTENANCE OR DEVELOPMENT WIDE MAINTENANCE. UM, SO YEAH, I GUESS JUST, I MEAN ROGER RAIDS IS A GREAT POINT. AND WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAINTAINING IF, YOU KNOW, WE, IF LIKE I SAID, WE LET THIS GO TO FIRE STANDARDS AND DEFENSIBLE FACE SPACE STANDARDS, WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT? IS IT PROPERTY OWNER? AND, AND YOU KNOW, EVERY DEVELOPMENT'S DIFFERENT, RIGHT? SOME DEVELOPMENTS DO HAVE MAINTENANCE FOR THE ENTIRE PROPERTY, WHICH THIS WOULD SLOT INTO PRETTY EASILY. THINKING OF A LOT OF PET PROJECTS I'VE VISITED AND THINGS LIKE THAT. UM, SO YEAH, I GUESS JUST GETTING CLARITY ON THAT ISSUE. MM-HMM. THAT IF WE HAVE IN SOMEONE'S PRIVATE PATIO A TREE IS THAT RESONANT OF THIS AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECT RESPONSIBLE FOR MAINTENANCE WHEN IT COMES TO FIRE CODE AND THINGS LIKE THAT? I MEAN, DO WE HAVE ANY SENSE IF THAT'S HAPPENED OR HOW THAT GETS HANDLED OR DYLAN? I I CAN TRY TO ANSWER THAT. YEAH. JUST FROM A CODE ENFORCEMENT STANDPOINT, UM, IF I WAS SENDING A LETTER FOR A, YOU KNOW, SINGLE APARTMENT THAT HAS MAYBE A BROKEN WINDOW, I WOULD PROBABLY SEND IT TO THE PROPERTY OWNER. 'CAUSE ULTIMATELY I THINK THEY'RE THE ONES RESPONSIBLE AND THEY WOULD BE THE ONES THAT WE WOULD BE, UH, SUING IN A LITIGATION OR FINING THROUGH ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS. AND IF THEY, YOUR LEASE SAYS, YOU KNOW, TENANT YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WINDOW OR THE MAINTENANCE OF WHATEVER THE TREE, THEN YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY COULD EVICT FOR. BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY LEASES DISCUSS, YOU KNOW, MAINTENANCE OF TREES. I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER SEEN THAT IN THE LEASE THAT I'VE, UH, WHEN I'VE LIVED IN APARTMENTS. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION THERE DARREN. YEAH, I MEAN YEAH, ASSUMING THIS FALLS TO THE PROPERTY OWNER AND KIND OF BROADER DEVELOPMENT MAINTENANCE AND MANAGEMENT, I AM OBVIOUSLY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS. I'D LIKE TO SEE A LITTLE MORE DIGGING. I THINK ROGER RAISED A GREAT POINT AND IF WE HAVE SCENARIOS WHERE A TENANT COULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT, THEN OBVIOUSLY THAT RAISES ISSUES. UM, YEAH, MAYBE WE CAN TAKE A LOOK AT, I DON'T KNOW, THE AFFORDABLE LEASES THAT EXIST THEN SEE WHAT THEY SAY ON THIS ISSUE. UH, I CAN CHECK IN WITH OUR AFFORDABLE HOUSING DEVELOPERS AND THAT, THAT WOULD BE GREAT JUST TO RUN, RUN THAT HYPOTHETICAL. OTHERWISE, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I'M BROADLY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS AS KIND OF A DESIGN CONSIDERATION, GETTING TREE COVERAGE AND YEAH, I THINK THE 10 FOOT TO AN EXISTING OR PROPOSED STRUCTURE, I'D LIKE TO SEE US NOT BE PRESCRIPTIVE WITH THAT AND JUST FALL BACK TO CODE ENFORCEMENT AND FIRE STANDARDS. 'CAUSE THAT SEEMS LIKE WHAT WE'VE DONE FOR FIRE STANDARDS THROUGHOUT. UM, SO YEAH. THANK YOU. YEAH. AS, UH, I AM MENTIONED BEFORE, I AM AGREEING WITH, UM, COMMISSIONER RASON THAT I DON'T THINK THAT WE NEED THE BUFFER. I THINK THAT OUR FA FIRE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS WILL TAKE CARE OF THAT. BUT I AM SUPPORTIVE OF THE TREE REQUIREMENT, BUT NOT IF IT NEEDS TO BE TENANT MAINTAINED. SO IF, IF IT WOULD BE THAT THIS WOULD BE THE TENANT SPACE AND THE TENANT'S RESPONSIBILITY, I THINK THAT'S A NO GO. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR TO PUT ON THEM. THIS IS A REQUIRE THIS, I THINK THIS SHOULD BE PUT ON THE PROPERTY OWNER OR THE DEVELOPMENT OR THE PROPERTY MANAGERS. SO, AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN THIS AREA SHOULD BE IN THE COMMON AREA. UM, THIS WILL PROBABLY NOT SURPRISE ANYONE, BUT I WILL DISAGREE JUST A LITTLE BIT. UM, I UNDERSTAND NOT WANTING TO BE PRESCRIPTIVE HERE, GIVEN THAT WE HAVE DEFERRED SO MUCH TO FIRE CODE ELSEWHERE. HOWEVER, THERE, THERE'S ALSO [02:05:01] A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS IN THE GROUND VERSUS WHAT IS A PRACTICE THAT'S BEING ACTIVELY MAINTAINED OR PROHIBITED. AND ONE THING TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT THESE ARE GOING TO BE LIKE FOR, IN THAT EXAMPLE THAT YOU ELOQUENTLY SKETCHED OUT FOR US, THANK YOU AGAIN FOR DOING ALL THAT ON THE FLY. UH, I WOULD'VE BEEN LUCKY IF I EVEN GOT A TRIANGLE ON THE SCREEN. UM, IT'D BE VERY EASY FOR, LET'S SAY IT IS A SCENARIO WHERE IT'S KIND OF YOUR BACKYARD. I ALS I DO AGREE BY THE WAY, WITH THIS OBVIOUSLY SHOULD NOT BE THE MAINTENANCE OF THE OWNER OR THE RENTER, ESPECIALLY A LOWER INCOME TENANT. THAT'S, THAT'S AN ABSURD SITUATION TO PUT THEM THROUGH. AND A COMMON AREA IS MOST LIKELY GOING TO BE REQUIRED TO HAVE ANY REAL ACCESS FOR MAINTENANCE. BUT GOING BACK TO THE TREE BUFFER, UH, IN THE EXAMPLE OF A SHARED BACKYARD OR JUST EXTENDED BACKYARD PEOPLE, BARBECUE PEOPLE HAVE FIRE PITS. IT'S RIDICULOUS. BUT THEY HAVE THEM, PEOPLE DO A LOT OF THINGS THEY PROBABLY SHOULDN'T DO DURING HIGH, HIGH RED FLAG WARNING FIRE SEASON. UH, THE NUMBER OF ALERTS WE HAD TO PUT OUT AT THE STATE JUST TO REMIND PEOPLE NOT TO SEND OFF FIREWORKS IN THE MIDDLE OF JUNE WAS MORE THAN I WOULD LIKE TO REMEMBER. SO KEEPING THAT IN MIND, I DO NOT HAVE THE SAME CONFIDENCE IN JUST RELYING ON FIRE CODE TO AVOID THERE BEING A RISK, ESPECIALLY GIVEN HOW QUICKLY EMBER SPREAD AND HOW EASY IT WOULD BE FOR A TREE CANOPY TO INTERACT WITH ANY NUMBER OF THINGS THROUGH TENANT USE, THEN LEADING THE FIRE STRAIGHT BACK TO THE MULTI-FAMILY UNIT. AND I ALSO WOULD KEEP IN MIND TOO THAT YES, WE ARE TRYING TO GET AS MUCH AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN AS WE CAN. WE'RE TRYING TO FILL THESE LOTS AS MUCH AS WE CAN WITH HOUSING. BUT IN THE SCENARIO WHERE WE'RE ALSO PUTTING IT RIGHT NEXT TO, UM, EXISTING LIKE SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING, HAVING A LITTLE BIT OF SPACE THERE TOO MIGHT MAKE IT EASIER FOR NEIGHBORS TO ACCLIMATE AND FOR THE NEW MULTIFAMILY UNITS TO FEEL A LITTLE PROTECTED, UH, FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT MIGHT NOT BE SO THRILLED. SO, UH, YEAH, MY, MY OVERALL WOULD BE TO KEEP THE BUFFER THAT YOU HAVE AND I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO FIRE PROTECTION AND PETALUMA EVERY LITTLE BIT HELPS. SO THANK YOU. SO I I TAKE THAT YOU'RE SUPPORTING THE B THE COMMON AREA. OKAY. J JUST AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU DRIVE AROUND PARTS OF, UH, EAST PETALUMA, ELI, AND MCDOWELL AND SOME OF THE STREETS, UH, EVERY ONE OF THOSE HOUSES HAD TREES PLANTED IN THE FRONT YARD WHEN THEY WERE BUILT. UM, VERY, VERY FEW TREES REMAIN. IT'S UP TO THE HOMEOWNER IF HE WANTS IT OR DOESN'T WANT IT OR LIKES IT OR DOESN'T LIKE IT. IT'S NOT IT, IT NEEDS TO BE I THINK A COMMON MAINTENANCE SOLUTION TO INTERFACE WITH A RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD. I THINK WE GOT SOME COMMENTS FROM, UM, BILL REINHARDT ABOUT HOW WE'RE DEFINING OPEN SPACE. UM, AND I'M IN AGREEMENT WITH SOME OF THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS THAT ARE LANDSCAPING PLACEMENT DIRECTION AND STANDARDS CAN AND SHOULD ONLY APPLY TO COMMON OPEN SPACE AND PUBLIC OPEN SPACE AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO APPLY TO THE PRIVATE OPEN SPACE AS DEFINED AT LINE 1 25. UM, SO TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT MEANS WE NEED TO RECONFIGURE THESE TREE, UH, UH, RULES TO THEIR, TO LIKE THEN HAVE MORE OF THE COMMON OPEN SPACE IN THE PLACES WE WANT TREES, LET'S DO THAT. UM, BUT I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT THE DE DEFINITIONS ARE REALLY CLEAR BECAUSE WE'VE GOTTEN SOME DIRECTION FROM PUBLIC COMMENTS SAYING THAT IT'S NOT CLEAR ENOUGH. UM, AND I, I AGREE THAT WE WANT TREES. I LIKE BLAKE'S IDEA OF HAVING, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE BIT MORE SOFTENING AT THE FRONT OF A MULTIFAMILY UNIT WHEN IT IS IN A A SINGLE FAMILY UNIT NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, BUT WE JUST NEED TO MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR AND, AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE PRIVATE OPEN SPACE AS DEFINED HERE, A PRIVATE OUTDOOR SPACE DESIGNATED FOR NO MORE THAN ONE RESIDENTIAL UNIT AND NOT ACCESSIBLE TO OTHER UNITS, WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE JURISDICTION OVER MM-HMM. , I THINK THAT GIVES US ENOUGH DIRECTION TO TAILOR THAT SECTION AND COME BACK. UM, BEFORE YOU. THANK YOU. AND DARREN, DID YOU HAVE OTHER TREE RELATED QUESTIONS? YEAH, UH, I'LL JUST HIT ON A COUPLE OTHER POINTS. UH, AND ONE OF THEM IS THIS ISSUE WE TALKED ABOUT AT PBA C AND TREE COMMITTEE'S JOINT MEETING OF THE POWER LINES. MM-HMM. AND I JUST BROKE MY MIC. YOU REAL . NO, IT'S JUST TOTALLY OFF. YOU WANNA TRADE SOME [02:10:01] OH YEAH. EVERYONE THAT, AND JUST SEE, I PULL IT OUT THE MERCY OF MY MICROPHONE. . THERE YOU GO. OKAY. THERE WE GO. LET'S START THAT AGAIN. MM-HMM. . UM, THE ISSUE OF THE POWER LINES, AND I'M CURIOUS NOW THAT WE'VE KIND OF TAKEN STREET TREES OFF THE TABLE WITH THIS MM-HMM. DO WE HAVE THE SAME CONCERN ABOUT POWER LINES? UM, AND YEAH, I I GUESS I'LL START THERE. DO WE HAVE THE SAME CONCERN ABOUT POWER LINES EVEN THOUGH WE'RE NOT GONNA BE ON THE STREET? YOU KNOW, I WENT BACK AND FORTH ON THIS 'CAUSE I, I ALSO, ANDREW AND I WERE KIND OF TALKING ABOUT THAT IF, YOU KNOW, STREET TREES ARE UNDER TREE STANDARDS AND I ENDED UP LEAVING IT IN BECAUSE I FIGURED IT WAS IN SPAR. MM-HMM. . AND SO I DIDN'T REALLY WANNA PULL STUFF OUT OF THAT WAS, THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY IN SPAR UNLESS I HAD SPECIFIC DIRECTION. SO IF, UM, I, YOU KNOW, MOST LIKELY IF THERE'S A NEW CONSTRUCTION, ANY POWER LINES ON SITE ARE GONNA BE UNDERGROUND. YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ALLOWED TO DO OVERHEAD POWER LINES. SO IT'S REALLY UNLIKELY THAT IT'S NECESSARY. I JUST WASN'T READY TO PULL IT OUT WITHOUT GETTING DIRECTION. OKAY. SO THIS KIND OF IMPLICITLY IS WHERE APPLICABLE, RIGHT? LIKE WHERE THERE ARE ACTUALLY POWER LINES THAT IT WILL BE INTERFERED WITH? EXACTLY. OKAY. UM, OKAY. THAT COVERS THAT ONE. UH, RIGHT ABOVE THAT, SO THAT WAS LINE 3 82 ON PAGE 14. RIGHT ABOVE THAT WE HAVE LINES THREE 80 AND 3 81 TALKING ABOUT TREE PLANTERS. SHELL INCLUDE ROOT BARRIERS AND SURFACE GRATES. I'M WONDERING IF WE CAN OFFER A COUPLE ENGINEERING SOLUTIONS THERE. AND I CAN SEND, UH, FROM CITY OF CHICO'S URBAN FORESTRY MANAGEMENT PLAN, JUST A COUPLE DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS FOR NAVIGATING PAVEMENT INTERFACE. IT'S CALLED SIDEWALK SOLUTIONS, PART OF THEIR, THEIR PLAN. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US OFFER A COUPLE OPTIONS THERE. UM, INSTEAD OF JUST ROOT BARRIERS AND SURFACE GRATES, A LOT OF TIMES THOSE ARE THE CHEAPEST, BUT JUST TO KEEP IT OPEN TO SOME OTHER OPTIONS THAT COULD SERVE THAT PURPOSE. MM-HMM. . UM, SO MAYBE I CAN SEND THAT TO YOU AFTER. UH, SO THAT'S MORE COMMENT IN THE QUESTION. UH, AND THEN THAT COVERS ENGINEERING SOLUTIONS. UM, YEAH. AND THEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT OPEN SPACE, SO I GUESS I'M MOVING BACKWARDS OUT THE PAGE, LINE 360 9 FOR OPEN SPACE ADJACENT. THIS IS SOMETHING, UH, BILL REINHARDT CALLED OUT IN HIS COMMENTS AND IT MADE ME KIND OF THINK ABOUT THE INTENTION OF THIS SET OF LINES 360 9 TO 3 72 OF ONLY USING PLANTS IDENTIFIED AS NATIVE TO PETALUMA WITHIN 50 FEET OF THE OPEN SPACE AREA. AND JUST THE WAY WE DEFINE OPEN SPACE AT THE BEGINNING. MM-HMM. IS PRETTY BROAD. YEAH. SO I THINK THE INTENTION OF THAT IS LIKE A NICE PRISTINE, OPEN SPACE. SO IF THERE'S SOME GRANULARITY WE CAN OFFER THERE. MM-HMM. , UM, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S LIKE A CERTAIN INTERFACE ZONE WE CAN DEFINE OR THAT'S DEFINED SOMEWHERE IN CODE MM-HMM. . UM, OR IF WE JUST SEPARATE OUT, UM, SOME OF THIS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT OPEN SPACE TO TALK ABOUT ANY PARK PUBLICLY USED LAND, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND THEN SEPARATE SOME OF THE LIKE, CITY OWNED PROPERTY UTILITY CORRIDOR OR SCHOOLYARD YEAH. THAT MAYBE AREN'T AS MUCH UNTOUCHED OPEN SPACE KIND OF MM-HMM. UH, UM, TENOR TO IT. I THINK THAT WOULD BE USEFUL. UH, 'CAUSE I APPRECIATE WHAT HE WAS SAYING, THAT THAT GETS PRETTY, PRETTY HEFTY TASK TO SOURCE 50 FEET EVERY TIME YOU HAVE OPEN SPACE AS DEFINED HERE. I THINK THAT'S PRETTY, PRETTY HARD. UM, BUT I SUPPORT THE RIVER AND CREEK ADJACENT THERE. UH, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ACTUALLY PRETTY MUCH COVERS IT FOR TREES. I'M, I WAS REALLY HAPPY TO SEE THE PARKING LOT CHANGE. MM-HMM. , UH, I THOUGHT HAVING THE DIAGRAM WAS GREAT AND I THOUGHT IT REALLY SIMPLIFIED AND MADE IT CLEAR. UM, I THINK CANOPY COVERAGE AS A POLICY TOOL IS WHERE KIND OF A LOT OF TREE POLICIES GOING. SO IT'S GREAT TO SEE THAT REFLECTED. UH, SO YEAH, I THINK THAT COVERS, OH, AND I GUESS WE'RE GONNA GET TO IPMP LATER, SO THAT COVERS THANKS. OKAY. UM, SO REAL QUICK, CAN I GET, IS THERE A CONSENSUS ON CHANGING OPEN SPACE TO SAY PARKS OR NATURAL AREAS, SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT? OR DID YOU WANNA GO WITH, UH, MR. REINHARDT'S PUBLIC COMMENT TO RESTRICT IT JUST TO THE RIVER ADJACENT? CAN I OFFER FOR THE COMMISSION'S CONSIDERATION THAT, UM, OUR OPEN SPACE RECREATION, OUR PARKS TEND TO, UM, MAY HAVE, UH, LESS NATIVE AND MORE ORNAMENTAL. SO WE SHOULD JUST BE KEEPING THAT IN MIND THAT, UM, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN APPLICATION. AND I JUST WANNA ADD THAT I, I THINK IN, UNLESS [02:15:01] WE'RE TALKING NATIVE RIPARIAN HABITAT OR SOMETHING MM-HMM. , I THINK THE 50 FOOT NATIVE DESIGNATION DOESN'T DO A WHOLE LOT AS, UH, OLI JUST POINTED OUT. SO, UM, YEAH. I I THINK I'D BE BROADLY SUPPORTIVE OF EITHER A VERY REFINED DEFINITION OF OPEN SPACE TO NATIVE RIPARIAN HABITAT. MM-HMM. , WHICH I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY OF, WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUE. PAUL LANE, THERE IS AN AFFORDABLE PROJECT, NATIVE REPAIRING HABITAT, UH, OR OTHERWISE RESTRICTED TO RIVERING CREEK. OKAY. CAN I JUST HYPOTHESIZE HERE AND ZOOM OUT A LITTLE BIT? MY UNDERSTANDING OF THIS NATIVE PLANT, UH, REQUIREMENT IS TO ENSURE THAT WE AREN'T ENCROACHING ON WHAT IS OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, WELL-ESTABLISHED NATIVE PLANTS. SO THAT'S WHERE I THINK RIVER AS, AS BILL LAID OUT, MAKES MORE SENSE. BUT IS THERE A DIFFERENT SORT OF, UH, SORT OF MOOD WE'RE TRYING TO CAST HERE IN TERMS OF NATIVE PLANT INVESTMENT, UM, AS OPPOSED TO NON-NATIVE? AND, AND WE DO, WE DO COVER IT IN DIFFERENT PLACES, BUT I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE WE'RE LIKE GOING FOR THE INTENDED OUTCOME, NOT JUST THE LINES IN THE DRAFT, YOU KNOW? YEAH, YEAH. WELL, AND, AND LIKE I SAID, IT WOULD BE A PRETTY RARE SCENARIO WHERE YOU'D HAVE PRISTINE NATIVE RIPARIAN HABITAT THAT THIS WOULD APPLY TO. SO I THINK IN THAT SCENARIO, THEN I'D LIKE TO SEE THIS EXTEND. BUT TO THE POINT ABOUT LIKE PARKS, SCHOOL YARDS, BROADER OPEN SPACE, I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS WOULD GET AS MUCH. SO I THINK FOR SURE EITHER SUPER NARROW BAND RARE SCENARIO ON THE NATIVE OPEN SPACE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, OR THE, THE HABITAT OPEN SPACE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. OR LEAVE IT AT JUST RIVER AND CREEKS. MM-HMM. . YEAH, I AGREE. IT'S, I THINK WE SHOULD EITHER GO IN A LITTLE BIT MORE DETAILED THAN SAY NATIVE HABITAT NEAR THE RIVERS AND CREEKS OR JUST LEAVE IT OUT. MM-HMM. . YEAH. I WOULD, I WOULD ACTUALLY, GIVEN HOW PAST EXAMPLES HAVE PLAYED OUT AND THE CHANGES WE'VE HAD TO MAKE, I WOULD ACTUALLY JUST KEEP IT TO THE GENERAL RIVERS AND CREEKS. MM-HMM. AND SEE HOW THIS GOES. YEAH. YEAH. I AM, UM, SUPPORTIVE OF, OF THE NATIVE PLANTING, UH, AND A HUNDRED PERCENT SUPPORTIVE NEXT TO NATIVE CONDITIONS, 50% SUPPORTIVE AND NON-NATIVE CONDITIONS WHEN YOU HAVE A TREE WELL, OR SOMETHING THAT A NATIVE PLANT DOESN'T NECESSARILY DO WHAT IT DOES IN NATIVE TERRITORY. SO I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE AND HEALTH OF THE PLANT OR THE TREE. UH, WHETHER IT'S NATIVE OR NOT, I'M LESS CONCERNED. UH, I THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO FOCUS ON PARKS AND OPEN SPACE AS NATIVES TREE WELLS. UH, IT'S A WIDE OPEN QUESTION OF WHAT GROWS WELL, WHAT MAINTAINS WELL. AND DIFFERENT CONDITIONS REQUIRE DIFFERENT TYPES OF TREES FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. SO I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT THE, JUST THE LABEL NATIVE, UH, BUT I THINK NATIVE WHERE IT'S THE MOST APPROPRIATE IS GOOD. YEAH. I'M COOL WITH JUST STICKING TO THE RIVERS THAT, YOU KNOW, AND WITH, WITH THAT, I THINK WE'RE MOSTLY GOOD ON TREES. I HAVE ONE MORE TREE THING. , I HAVE A QUESTION ON YOUR, ON THE IMAGE THAT'S ON THE, WE'RE, WE'RE GONNA LET JESSICA GO FIRST AND THEN ROGER, YOU MAY GO. JESSICA. UM, I WANTED TO LOOK AT THE SOLAR CARPORT SHADE TREE FIGURE WE'VE GOT AT LINE TWO 17. UM, I, I UNDERSTAND THAT WE'RE SENSITIVE TO OBVIOUSLY CANOPY SIZE AND WANT TO BE, UM, AWARE OF, OF THE HEAT ISLANDS THAT, UH, PARKING LOTS CAN REPRESENT. BUT I ALSO DON'T WANNA DISSUADE SOMEONE WHO'S REALLY BULLISH ON SOLAR. AND IF THERE IS A DEVELOPER WHO'S TRYING TO GO NET ZERO WHAT HAVE YOU, AND THEY ARE DOWN TO PAY FOR A BUNCH MORE SOLAR PANELS, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD TELL THEM THEY CAN'T. SO I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S A WAY TO RECON, I KNOW YOU HAD SAID THAT 50% WAS A BIT, UH, ARBITRARY. SO IF THERE'S A WAY TO SAY THAT YOU'LL KEEP THE PERIMETER, UH, UH, DRESSED WITH MATURE TREES, BUT INTERIOR PARKING SPOTS CAN HAVE SOLAR PANEL COVERAGE. YOU KNOW, I JUST THINK WE SHOULD BE ALLOWING THOSE INVESTMENTS IF DEVELOPERS WISH TO MAKE THEM. YEAH. YEAH, I AGREE WITH THAT. YEAH, I WOULD AGREE AS WELL. ROGER, MARK, UM, THE QUESTION, I GUESS ON YOUR, YOUR, YOUR DIAGRAM, UM, IT'S A PARKING LOT WITH TREES, BUT WHERE YOUR TREES ARE PLANTED OR THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT [02:20:01] THERE'S A PLANTER THERE? UH, IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE, I THINK, PREFERABLE TO SHOW HOW THE TREES FIT INTO THE PARKING SYSTEM AS OPPOSED TO IT BEING FLOATING OVER SOMEWHERE AND NOT HAVING A PLACE TO BE LOCATED BECAUSE IT, IT'S BE IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE SOME OF THESE THINGS WITHOUT LOCATING EITHER IN A PARKING SPOT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT OR IN THE END OF IT. MM-HMM. , IS THAT POSSIBLE? YEAH, I, THE, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST A PRELIMINARY DRAWING JUST TO GET THE POINT ACROSS THAT WE'RE USING SHADE AND MATURE CANOPY IS WHAT WE'RE MEASURING. SO MY, YOU KNOW, HOWEVER IT WOULD LOOK ON THE UNDERLAY IF A DEVELOPER WERE TO COME IN, MY ANTICIPATION IS THAT THEY WOULD PROVIDE US A DRAWING THAT SHOWED LIKE, HERE'S THE CANOPY OF THE TREE THAT'S COVERING 50% SO THAT WE COULD CHECK THAT BOX. SO, UM, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T GO INTO THE DETAILS OF WHAT IT NEEDED TO LOOK LIKE UNDERNEATH. I WAS JUST TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE WHAT 50% SHADE WAS. I, I, MY ONLY POINT IS THAT THE, THE DEVELOPER'S GONNA BE DEALING WITH THE ARITHMETIC OF THE PARKING LAYOUT. SO I'D LIKE TO GET SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T ACHIEVES THAT WITH A PARKING LAYOUT AS OPPOSED TO IN INDEPENDENTLY. 'CAUSE THEY'RE NOT DEPENDENT. MM-HMM. , I CAN JUST OFFER THAT WE HAVE VERY SPECIFIC, UM, PARKING STANDARDS ALREADY, UH, VERY WELL DEFINED THAT SAYS, UH, HOW MANY, UM, WHERE THE MEDIANS GO, HOW MUCH, UM, UH, THOSE HAVE TO BE SPACED OUT IN BETWEEN THE PARKING. SO, UH, THIS, AS HEATHER SAID, THAT PURPOSE OF THIS IS REALLY NOT TO SHOW EXACTLY WHERE THEY'RE GONNA GO, BUT THE OVERALL COVERAGE OF THE 50%. SO I, I THINK I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS YOU WANNA HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW IT LOOKS UNDERNEATH. AND I'M SAYING WE DO HAVE THOSE PARKING STANDARDS ALREADY IN OUR REGULATION. OKAY. LAST CALL FOR OTHER TREE BASED QUESTIONS. I DIDN'T, UM, WAIT, ROGER'S GOT ONE MORE. UM, WHERE'S THE TREE? WELL ON, OH, UM, YEAH, AND LA ON SEVEN ON THE LANDSCAPING, UM, PAGE 13, UH, LANDSCAPING WITHIN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY SHALL COMPLY WITH CITY'S LANDSCAPE IRRIGATION STANDARDS. I'M NOT CLEAR IF THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY IS, IS WELL DEFINED. I MEAN, IN SOME CASES, THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY IS BACK A CURB, OR AT LEAST THE PUBLIC RESPONSIBILITY IS BACK A CURB UN UNLESS OTHERWISE DESIGNATED. UM, IT DEPENDS, BECAUSE OFTEN ON A NEW STREET, IT'S GONNA BE BASED ON, LIKE, IF THERE'S NOT AN EXISTING CURB OR SIDEWALK, THEY WILL HAVE TO PUT WHERE IT'S GONNA BE BASED ON THE CENTER LINE OF THE STREET. SO, UM, IT JUST DEPENDS HOW THE CODE DESIGNATES IT. UM, WHAT, HOW BIG THE RIGHT OF WAY IS. IT ALSO DEPENDS ON WHOSE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY IT IS. SO IF IT'S A ROAD THAT'S A SHARED RIGHT OF WAY BETWEEN SOMETHING, AND I DON'T KNOW IF PETALUMA EVEN HAS A CALTRANS RIGHT OF WAY THAT RUNS THROUGH IT. UM, I KNOW LAKEVILLE HIGHWAY IS A HIGHWAY, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF IT ACTUALLY IS CALTRANS. IT'S PARTIALLY CALTRANS. OKAY. YEAH. I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THAT FAR. BUT IN SEVERAL JURISDICTIONS YOU KIND OF HAVE MULTIPLES, AND SO PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY IS SOMETIMES DEFINED BY THEM. SO IT JUST DEPENDS. SO YOU'RE ALLOWING WITH THIS FLEXIBILITY BASED ON THE NEED? YEAH. I MEAN, WELL, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY FLEXIBLE, BUT IT'S DIFFERENT. IT'S VARIABLE. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? YES. OKAY. SO I GUESS IF THE, IF THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY IS BACK A CURB, SO ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR A STREET TREE GOES ON TO THE PROJECT, UM, IF THE, WELL, SO I, IDEALLY THE TREES MIGHT EVEN BE BETWEEN THE STREET AND THE SIDEWALK. SO A A LOT OF TIMES YOU'RE PLANTING STRIPS, SO, BUT THE OWNER IS USUALLY RES AND, AND I BELIEVE THAT'S THE CASE. DYLAN SHAKING HIS HEAD. YEAH. PETALUMA, WE HAVE A, I THINK A MUNICIPAL CODE ORDINANCE THAT SAYS THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR YEAH, WE DO. YEAH. MM-HMM. . BUT TO ROGER'S POINT, MAYBE WE CAN LOOK INTO DEFINING IN THE DEFINITION SEC SECTION PUBLIC RIGHT. OF WAYS OR SOMETHING, IF THAT'S POSSIBLE. WELL, I GUESS I MISSED QUESTION. HOW DO WE GET STREET TREES PLANTED WITH THESE PROJECTS TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A PARKWAY AND A, AND A STREET TREE? SO IF IT'S IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY, WHAT HAPPENS IS, [02:25:02] IT'S ONE OF THOSE FUNNY THINGS. THE WAY THAT IT WORKS, IT'S NOT ALWAYS INTUITIVE. SO IF YOU, THE, THE, THE SIDEWALK IS PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY, BUT DEVELOPERS ARE REQUIRED TO DEVELOP IT, BUT BECAUSE IT'S PUBLIC, IT'S SUBJECT TO THE PUBLIC STANDARDS AND IT HAS TO BE DEVELOPED TO PUBLIC STANDARDS. SO IT'S, UM, SO EVEN THOUGH IT'S PUBLIC AREA AND THERE'S, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC EASE, IT'S, IT'S NOT PRIVATE PROPERTY. THE DEVELOPER HAS TO DEVELOP IT TO THE CITY STANDARDS. SO IF THE CITY STANDARDS, SO YOU HAVE TO PLANT A STREET TREE EVERY 20 FEET, AND THAT, THAT STREET TREE MUST BE IN A WELD AT SIX FEET BY FOUR FEET OR WHATEVER, AND IT MUST HAVE X, Y, Z, THEN THOSE ARE THE STANDARDS THAT APPLY BECAUSE IT'S IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. BECAUSE IT APPLIES TO THE PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE, EVEN THOUGH THE DEVELOPER IS REQUIRED TO, TO BUILD IT FOR THE PUBLIC AND MAINTAIN IT AND MAINTAIN IT. YES. UH, ONE, ONE OF YOUR SLIDES SHOWED A, UH, STREETSCAPE WITH A TREE AND A SIDEWALK. I'M NOT SURE WHICH ONE IT WAS. UM, AROUND 26 SOMEWHERE, I THINK. UM, YOU LOOK THIS ONE? NO, IT WAS A, UM, IT SHOWED, IT WAS A, UH, LOOKING DOWN THE SIDEWALK AND IT WAS A, UH, LOOKED LIKE A FIVE FOOT SIDEWALK AND A FIVE FOOT TREE. WELL, BUT THE, BUT THE SIDEWALK WAS ACTUALLY 10 FEET WITH THE TREE. WELL CUT OUT OF IT. OH. IT'S IN THE STANDARDS. OKAY. UM, WHAT WAS YOUR QUESTION THOUGH, ROGER? ANYWAY, I I IT JUST SEEMED LIKE IT, UM, ILLUSTRATION OF A WIDER SIDEWALK THAN A PROJECT WOULD NEED. IT LOOKED LIKE A COMMERCIAL SIDEWALK. UM, AND THIS IS RE RESIDENTIAL HOUSING, SO I'M NOT SURE WHY WE'RE SHOWING THAT SORT OF IMAGE. SO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, UM, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IN THE STANDARDS? YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FIGURE SIX ON LINE 3 86? IS THAT THE ONE THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT? UM, THAT PAGE 13. YOU GOT IT. ROGER, THIS ONE? NO, NO, ITS, IT'S A, IT'S IT SITE, IT'S A SITE PICTURE THAT'S NOT IN YOUR PACKAGE. OH, OKAY. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THESE? THIS, THIS ONE HERE, RIGHT HERE. YOU JUST PASSED IT. OH, THIS ONE ON THE RIGHT. I MEAN, I, I GUESS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A RESIDENTIAL FRONTAGE AND TYPICALLY IT'S NOT A 10 FOOT SIDEWALK WITH THREE WELLS. SO IS THERE A WAY WE CAN SHOW JUST A PARKWAY? WELL, THIS WAS JUST THIS, THIS IS JUST A PRESENTATION FOR US, ROGER. YEAH. JUST A PICTURE OF A TREE, BUT WELL, THESE, WELL, THESE IMAGES I THINK WILL SHOW UP IN THE DOCUMENT. THESE ONES WILL NOT JUST THE DRAWINGS. YEAH, JUST THE DRAWINGS THAT ARE INTENDED TO ILLUSTRATE. OKAY. YEAH. THAT, LET'S GO, LET'S GO TO PAGE 26. SLIDE OR SLIDE 26 THEN IS THIS ENTIRE SLIDE SHOW IS FOR US, ROGER. YEAH. THE PROBLEM IS I REVIEWED THIS MM-HMM. DOCUMENT. WE'RE NOT GOING THROUGH THIS DOCUMENT. THAT'S, NO, THAT'S THE DOC. SO YEAH, THAT'S ALL RIGHT. THAT IS, THOSE ARE THE DRAFT STANDARDS THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING. THIS IS JUST A SLIDESHOW MEANT TO PRESENT IT. THAT'S ALL. OKAY. WE'RE NOT GONNA DISCUSS THIS THOUGH. NO, WE ARE DISCUSSING THAT. OKAY, THEN I'LL, I'LL WAIT. NO, WE'RE DISCUSSING THAT. THIS WHOLE THING IS US DISCUSSING THAT WHAT'S REFERENCED HERE IS JUST IMAGERY MEANT TO HELP US HAVE AN EASIER TIME TALKING ABOUT THAT DOCUMENT. ALRIGHT. WELL, OKAY. , UM, ON THIS, ON THIS IMAGE, I GUESS MY POINT WAS THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH BUILDINGS THAT HAVE PROBABLY ALONG THIS SAYS 14 DIFFERENT ENTRIES TO THE, TO THE RESIDENTIAL UNITS. NOT ONE MAIN ENTRY LIKE A, LIKE A SHOPPING CENTER OR A BIG BUILDING. THIS LOOKS LIKE A COMMERCIAL POST OFFICE BUILDING WITH A ENTRY. AND I, I JUST LIKE TO SHOW MORE REALISTIC IMAGES OF WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. OH, OKAY. ALRIGHT. WELL, AND WHEN I ASKED THAT QUESTION ABOUT IMAGES EARLIER, I THINK SOME OF THIS IS GONNA MAKE IT IN TO HELP CONCEPTUALIZE IT, BUT WE WE'RE NOT SEEING THE FINAL IMAGES. WHY DON'T WE ASK STAFF ? YEAH. DRAWING. DID YOU LET US US KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S GONNA MAKE IT? YEAH, THE DRAWINGS ARE, AND UM, AND, UM, SO BUILDINGS COME IN ALL DIFFERENT SHAPES. UM, BUT, UH, THIS ACTUALLY IS A PRETTY TYPICAL RECESSED ENTRYWAY. UM, BUT YEAH, THE DRAWINGS ARE, UM, IF YOU LIKE THEM, THEY'LL GO IN. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM, I CAN LEAVE THEM OUT. . [02:30:02] UM, THE, BUT YEAH, THEY'RE, THESE ARE PRELIMINARY DRAWINGS, SO, AND, UM, BUT YES, THE, THE PLAN WAS TO PUT THE DRAWINGS, NOT THE PHOTOGRAPHS IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS ARE, UM, TO, TO GIVE SORT OF AN IDEA OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. SO, BUT SO JUST TO BE CLEAR, SO THE FINAL, SO THAT EVERYBODY, WE FEEL LIKE WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE OKAY. FOR THE ACTUAL DRAFT DOCUMENT THAT WILL EVENTUALLY BECOME THE OBJECTIVES DESIGN STANDARDS THAT ARE REFERENCED. MM-HMM. BY WAY OF THE IZO, THERE WILL BE DRAWINGS. MM-HMM. THERE WILL BE DIAGRAMS. MM-HMM. , THERE WILL NOT BE ANY OF THE LIVE IMAGES SHOWN IN THE SLIDESHOW, WHICH IS LARGELY FOR US TO HELP US YES. FACILITATE THIS DISCUSSION. CORRECT. SO IN THAT WAY, YOU, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PRETTY MUCH ANY OF THE THINGS YOU'RE SEEING ON THE SLIDESHOW BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING TO BE IN THE ACTUAL DRAFT. BUT ARE WE GONNA SEE THE DRAWINGS OR THE ILLUSTRATIONS THAT ARE IN THE DRAFT? YES. YOU'LL SEE THE, THESE ARE GOING TO GO INTO THE DRAFT. THE IDEA IS TO HAVE THE ILLUSTRATIONS IN THERE. 'CAUSE THE FEEDBACK WE GOT WAS THAT YOU WANTED THE ILLUSTRATIONS IN. SO, SO THESE ARE THE DRAWINGS THAT WILL GO INTO THE DRAFT, THE DRAWINGS, BUT NOT THE PHOTOGRAPHS. OKAY. AND THERE'S ROOM TO IMPROVE THE DRAWINGS BEFORE WE GET TO THE FINAL DOCUMENT. YES. THEY'RE JUST DRAFT DRAWINGS AT THIS POINT. SO MY ONLY POINT IS I'D LIKE THE DRAWINGS TO REFLECT THE NATURE OF WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. GOT IT. A 2030 UNIT, 40 UNIT PER ACRE SITE PLAN THAT HAS ALL THE INGREDIENTS THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH. YES. DARREN? JUST BECAUSE IT'S UNDER TREES AND IT LOOKED LIKE WE WEREN'T GETTING INTO THIS SEPARATELY. UM, ARTIFICIAL TURF, I SEE THAT, UH, LINES 3 73 AND 3 74 ON PAGE 14. UM, I GUESS CAN YOU GIVE US A LITTLE CONTEXT ON THE DISCUSSIONS THERE? I KNOW THIS HAS BEEN A BIG POLICY POINT ELSEWHERE IN THE CITY PARKS AND RECREATION AS A COMMITTEE HAS KIND OF PUSHED A, A DIRECTION OF NO ARTIFICIAL TURF. AND I THINK OUR CITY COUNCIL HAS REFLECTED THAT. BUT I'LL WAIT FOR STAFF TO CONFIRM THAT, WHAT THE CONVERSATIONS WERE AROUND THAT WITH YOUR KIND OF STAKEHOLDER GROUPS AND THEN WHAT WE THINK, HOW, HOW WE MAKE SURE WE ALIGN WITH WHAT ELSE IS GOING ON IN THE CITY. SURE, SURE. OKAY. SO ARTIFICIAL TURF, UM, THAT'S DEFINITELY, UH, ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE WE HAD A LOT OF BACK AND FORTH AND THEN, UM, THOUGHT WE HAD A DIRECTION AND THEN, UH, CAME BACK AGAIN IN PUBLIC COMMENT. SO I WANTED TO BRING IT UP AGAIN. UM, SO THANK YOU FOR CATCHING UP ON THAT. UM, SO BASICALLY WHERE WE WERE AT WAS THAT, UM, ART TURF, ARTIFICIAL TURF SHOULD NOT BE USED. HOWEVER, UM, ON SPORTS FIELDS AND RECREATIONAL AREAS, IT CAN BE USED WHERE ORGANIC INFILL MATERIAL IS USED. SO THE IDEA IS IT WOULD BE ON THE SURFACE INSTEAD OF GRASS. UM, THE REASONS PEOPLE USE ARTIFICIAL TURF IS BECAUSE, UM, GRASS TAKES A LOT OF MAINTENANCE. SO, UM, TRADITIONAL GRASS MAINTENANCE USUALLY INVOLVES A LOT OF LAWN MOWING WITH GASOLINE AS WELL AS, UM, INORGANIC FERTILIZERS, UM, CHEMICALS. AND SO THAT'S TYPICALLY WHY PEOPLE, UM, THOUGHT, OKAY, WE'LL SAVE WATER, WE'LL REDUCE OUR GAS USAGE, WE'LL USE ARTIFICIAL TURF. UM, ARTIFICIAL TURF HAS SOME, UM, ISSUES WITH THE FACT THAT IT'S PRODUCED. IT'S A PLASTIC. SO, UM, THAT'S A CONCERN. UM, LONGEVITY OF IT IS ALSO A POTENTIAL ISSUE. WHILE MODERN TURF IS IN THEORY, MORE LONG LASTING, UM, DEPENDING ON THE RECREATIONAL USE, UM, DOGS, IT'S, IT'S NOT SO GOOD. UM, . SO THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF THE RUNDOWN ON IT. UM, THERE'S DEFINITELY GOOD REASONS TO SAY NO ARTIFICIAL TURF, BUT THERE'S ALSO GOOD REASONS TO ALLOW ARTIFICIAL TURF FOR SPORTS FIELDS. UM, THERE'S ALSO ALTERNATIVE SPORTS FIELD TURF. THAT'S NOT THE FAKE GRASSY STUFF. SO THERE'S DIFFERENT KINDS OF RUBBERIZED SURFACES THAT CAN ALSO BE USED FOR SMALLER, FOR SPORTS FIELDS, BUT IT IS COMPARATIVELY EXPENSIVE. UM, IF RECYCLED WATER IS AVAILABLE AND YOU'RE NOT USING CHEMICALS AND FERTILIZERS AND GAS MOWERS, THEN THERE'S DEFINITELY A CASE FOR GRASS, UM, JUST USING GRASS. BUT THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE RUNDOWN. OKAY. THANKS [02:35:01] FOR THAT. AND, AND LIKE I SAID, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S A POLICY DIRECTION EMERGING, MOVING AWAY FROM ARTIFICIAL TURF, I GUESS FOR THESE KINDS OF DEVELOPMENTS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. UM, IS THIS SOMETHING WE SEE PRETTY OFTEN? JUST THINKING OF THE SITES THAT I VISITED LEADING UP TO THIS, I DIDN'T SEE RECREATIONAL OR SPORTS FIELDS. UM, BUT IS IT SOMETHING WE SEE IN A LOT OF AFFORDABLE APPLICATIONS OR DEVELOPMENTS HERE IN PETALUMA? I'M, I'M JUST THINKING THROUGH WHETHER I HAVE OR HAVEN'T. I DON'T. I AM, UH, THE ONLY ARTIFICIAL TURF IN TOWN THAT I'M AWARE OF IS THAT THE LARGE, UM, THE LARGE FACILITIES, THE BIG, BIG RECREATIONAL CENTERS, UM, ON, AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS, UM, SMALLER MULTI-FAMILY DEVELOPMENT. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IT MIGHT BE A, A SMALL PORTION OF A, OF A, YOU KNOW, PLAYGROUND AREA OR A LOT, UM, NOT AN EXPANSIVE, UM, YOU KNOW, RECREATIONAL FIELD WHERE SPORTS ARE HAPPENING. OKAY. NO, AND I APPRECIATE ALL THAT CLARITY. AND LIKE I SAID, I KNOW THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE. I THINK I GENERALLY TEND TO THE SIDE OF JUST DISALLOWING ARTIFICIAL OR DISALLOWING ARTIFICIAL TURF BROADLY. UM, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE SOMETHING WE, WE DON'T SEE, BUT THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I LINE DOWN THAT. SO I JUST WANTED TO GIVE THAT FEEDBACK AND I'LL LET OTHER COMMISSIONERS, UH, CHIME IN. YES, YOU WILL. JESSICA. I AM COMFORTABLE HAVING ARTIFICIAL TURF ALLOWED ON SPORTS FIELDS AND RECREATIONAL RECREATIONAL AREAS AS CURRENTLY WRITTEN AND WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THAT ROGER SUPPORT ARTIFICIAL TURF ANYWHERE. OH, YOU WANNA TURN YOUR MIC ON? I DO NOT SUPPORT ARTIFICIAL TURF ANYWHERE. I, GENERALLY SPEAKING, DO NOT SUPPORT ARTIFICIAL TURF. I, I WILL SAY, HAVING GROWN UP PLAYING SOCCER HERE, EVERY DIRT FIELD I EVER PLAYED SOCCER ON WAS AN ANKLE AND KNEE HAZARD. BUT FROM MY ENVIRONMENTAL PERSPECTIVE, I DON'T SUPPORT, UH, ARTIFICIAL TURF. BUT ALSO KEEPING IN MIND THE SIZE OF THE LOTS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, I ALSO CAN'T SEE A JUSTIFICATION FOR ARTIFICIAL TURFS ON THESE SPOTS. THEY'RE NOT GONNA BE VERY BIG. YOU'RE NOT GONNA HAVE VERY, A LOT OF DIVOTS. UH, AND THEY'LL BE FAIRLY EASY, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S JUST PEOPLE KIND OF ROUGHHOUSING BETWEEN SOCCER OR, OR FOOTBALL. UH, SO I CAN'T REALLY SEE A JUSTIFICATION FOR IT EITHER. SO I ALSO WOULD SUPPORT KEEPING IT OUT. UM, I GUESS I'M REALLY TORN ABOUT THIS 'CAUSE I MEAN, I DON'T REALLY LOVE ARTIFICIAL TURF EITHER, BUT DON'T LOVE GRASS EITHER, , BECAUSE THE CAR IS A LOT OF WATER AND MAINTENANCE AND HUMAN RESOURCES AND MONEY TO MAINTAIN. BUT, UM, I GUESS SINCE WE'RE PROBABLY NOT TALKING ABOUT BIG SOCCER FIELDS HERE, UM, WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT LITTLE AREAS THAT ARE PROBABLY LESS MONEY TO MAINTAIN FOR THE TYPE OF PROJECTS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. PROBABLY DON'T SUPPORT ARTIFICIAL TURF IN THESE AREAS. 'CAUSE I FEEL LIKE THE AREAS THAT THEY WOULD BE USED IN WOULD BE FOR SMALL CHILDREN. AND THEN I DON'T THINK SMALL CHILDREN SHOULD BE RUNNING AROUND AND SCRAPING THEIR KNEES ON ARTIFICIAL TURF. SO PROBABLY NOT SUPPORTIVE OF ARTIFICIAL TURF FOR THESE TYPES OF RESIDENTIAL PROJECTS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. MM-HMM. , THANKS. AND I MISSED DARREN'S FEEDBACK ON THE SOLAR PANELS, WHETHER HE WAS OKAY WITH AS MUCH SOLAR FOR SHADE AND IN LIEU OF TREES. NO RESTRICTIONS IN TOTALLY IN LIEU OF TREES. I I, I DIDN'T WANT TO SEND US DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF THERE COULD BE A MINIMUM TREE COVERAGE. SO, HEY, IF YOU WANT MORE SOLAR PANELS, GREAT. AND MAYBE THEY JUST GO OVER THE, BUT THE TREES JUST ON THE OUTSIDE WAS WHAT WE WERE. OKAY. SO YEAH. YEAH, I THINK IF THERE'S SOME WAY TO YEAH. PUT THAT INTO AN OBJECTIVE SENSE THAT IF YOU WANT, BUT AT LEAST MAINTAIN TREES ON THE OUTSIDE PERIMETER OF THE SURE. PARKING LOT. I'D BE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. SORRY, I JUST NEEDED THAT TO CLOSE MY GAP THERE. OKAY. OKAY. WE ARE MOVING AWAY FROM TREES. BEFORE WE GET INTO THE EXCITING GENRE OF BIKE PARKING, CAN WE TAKE A BIO BREAK PLEASE? YES, WE ABSOLUTELY CAN SEE YOU BACK IN FIVE MINUTES. WELCOME BACK EVERYBODY. UH, WE'LL GET, CONTINUE WITH OUR MEETING, UH, ONE, ONE CALL TO RULE OR DIRECTIVE OR WHAT HAVE YOU. BUT FOR THE DISCUSSION GOING FORWARD, PLEASE, BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF US WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THIS ONE REALLY BE CURTAILED TO FOCUS ON FEEDBACK FOR STAFF. SO PLEASE STATE YOUR QUESTION DIRECTLY OR YOUR STATEMENT DIRECTLY. THIS IS NOT THE NIGHT FOR PREAMBLES OR FOR SPEECHES ABOUT OTHER COMMITTEES. WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT OUR FEEDBACK OR OUR QUESTIONS ON THESE ITEMS. AND WITH THAT, HEATHER, TAKE IT AWAY TO OUR NEXT TOPIC. ALL RIGHT. SO THE, UM, BICYCLE PARKING. UM, SO [02:40:01] I, I AS NOTED, UM, THESE STANDARDS, THIS IS ONE AREA WHERE THIS IS MORE STRINGENT THAN WHAT THE EXISTING CODE REQUIRES. AND AGAIN, THE REASONING BEHIND THAT IS BECAUSE, UM, IN ADDITION TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IT'S IMPORTANT TO PROVIDE AFFORDABLE TRANSPORTATION THAT MEETS OUR CLIMATE GOALS, WHICH E-BIKES ARE A HUGE GROWING NUMBER OF, UM, VEHICLES ON THE ROAD THAT PROVIDE THAT. SO, UM, LOOKING AT TRYING TO THINK ABOUT ALTERNATIVE BIKES, BIG BIKES, HEAVY BIKES, UM, THAT WAS SORT OF WHAT I UNDERSTAND FROM TALKING TO BJORN. UM, THESE STANDARDS WERE INTENDED TO BE AND THAT THIS IS ALSO THE DIRECTION THAT CITY POLICY IS GOING. UM, BUT LIKE I SAID, THIS IS, THIS IS ZONING CODE. SO, UM, IF, IF THESE ARE NOT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS SOME CONCERN ABOUT THE PROHIBITION ON THE DIFFERENT, UM, BIKE RACKS. SO, UM, I'M HAPPY TO HAVE YOUR FEEDBACK ON, UM, ON WHAT YOU GUYS WANNA DO WITH THOSE AND THE SPACE SIZING OR IF THERE'S THINGS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO TAKE OUT, LEAVE IN CHANGE. YEAH, I'LL, I'LL KICK THIS ONE OFF. UH, THE SPACING MADE A LOT OF SENSE BASED ON OTHER STANDARDS I'VE SEEN FOR THIS, BUT DID YOU HAVE, WE'RE ABLE TO TEST OUT THE LENGTH, I'M JUST THINKING ESPECIALLY FOR MULTI-FAMILY APARTMENTS WITH, WITH A BIKE ROOM THAT, OR BIKE STORAGE LIKE THAT. UH, WERE YOU ABLE TO HAVE ANYBODY WHO IS, UH, SENIOR OR MOBILELY RESTRICTED KIND OF TEST OUT SOME OF THIS MM-HMM. THE SPACING FOR THE RACKS? 'CAUSE I UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE NOT TO HAVE SOMEBODY PULL THE BIKE OVER THEM, BUT THAT ALSO IMPLIES YOU'RE CONSIDERING FOR THAT POPULATION AS WELL. SO I JUST WAS WONDERING IF THESE SPACES WOULD WORK. SO THIS, SO BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE, YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS YOU WOULD HAVE THE TWO, YOU CAN PUT ONE BIKE ON EITHER SIDE OF THOSE RACKS AND THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD BE LENGTHWISE MM-HMM. . SO YOU'RE WALKING UP AND THERE'S THE SPACE IN BETWEEN AND IN THEORY PROVIDES ENOUGH. UM, BUT AGAIN, IT IS THEORY, UM, . SO WE DID EXTEND THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO RACKS TO BE FIVE FEET FOR THE SENIOR DEVELOPMENT TO PROVIDE MORE OKAY. AMBULATION SPACE AND ALSO POTENTIALLY WIDER BITES. OKAY. SO YEAH, THERE IS WIDER. AND WHY, WHY DID YOU REDUCE THOUGH THE AMOUNT OF REQUIRED FOR THE SENIOR DEVELOPMENT? I DID SEE REDUCED IT 25%. I ONLY ASK BECAUSE MOST OF THE FOLKS I SEE ON BIKES ARE EITHER CHILDREN OR SENIORS. SO THE REASON THAT WE REDUCED IT WAS THE, THE WAY THAT THE, THE THINKING WAS, AND THIS KINDA CAME FROM THE PBA DISCUSSION, WAS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE, YOU, YOU MAY HAVE LESS SENIORS RIDING, BUT THEY'RE GONNA HAVE A DIFFERENT VARIETY OF BIKES AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF ABILITIES. SO THEY NEED MORE SPACE POTENTIALLY. UM, BUT MAYBE THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LESS PEOPLE RIDING NOW THAT COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG. OKAY. AND AGAIN, THAT WAS, THAT WAS REVISED BASED ON THAT COMMITTEE FEEDBACK THAT WE GOT, BUT I AM HAPPY TO, YOU KNOW, AND THE IDEA WAS TO NOT TO TAKE UP MORE SPACE FOR BIKE PARKING, BUT THAT COULD ALSO. GOTCHA. AND WAS THERE ANY MEANINGFUL DIS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BIKE PARKING REQUIRED FOR, UH, SOME OF OUR LARGER ELECTRIC BIKES AND BIKE PARKING FOR JUST STANDARD BICYCLES? NO, IT WAS, I'VE EVER HAD A BIKE. I'VE NEVER HAD AN E-BIKES, SO I JUST WANTED TO KNOW. YEAH, I MEAN THE, THE DIFFERENCE WITH THE E-BIKES, THEY DO HAVE BIGGER TIRES, TYPICALLY. THEY DO HAVE BIGGER FRAMES AND THEY'RE HEAVIER BECAUSE THAT BATTERY IS HEAVY. SO, UM, YOU KNOW, WHEN I, AGAIN, WHEN I TALKED TO BR IN THIS WAS KIND OF THE RECOMMENDED LIKE, SO THAT IT ACCOMMODATES ALL BICYCLES AND ALL ABILITIES FOR USING BICYCLES. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S IT FOR NOW. YEAH. JESSICA? UM, I LIKE THE SPIRIT OF THIS SECTION, UM, BUT I WANT TO HAVE STAFF CONSIDER HOW WE CAN WRITE THIS TOWARDS PERFORMANCE AS OPPOSED TO PRESCRIPTIVE SIZE AND STYLE. BECAUSE I THINK WE WANT TO HAVE CARGO BIKES AND E-BIKES AND A, A HIGH DENSITY OF BIKES THAT ARE LOCKED SECURELY. BUT I ALSO WANT TO BE MINDFUL OF THE TRADE-OFFS WHERE WE'RE MAKING ALL THE SPACE FOR BIKES AND WE HAVE TO MAKE A BUNCH OF SPACE FOR CARS TOO. AND NOW WE'RE LOSING AFFORDABLE UNITS. MM-HMM. . UM, AND, AND I ALSO AM AM SENSITIVE TO THE EVOLUTION OF ACTIVE TRANSPORT WHERE YOU MIGHT HAVE A BUNCH OF E-BIKES RIGHT NOW, BUT MAYBE IN 10 YEARS WE'RE ALL [02:45:01] ON SINGLE WHEEL THINGS THAT ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHAPED AND MM-HMM. ARE GETTING, YOU KNOW, STORED IN YOUR APARTMENT OR FOLD UP OR WHATEVER. LIKE, I JUST, I I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK MORE TOWARDS THE LIKE, PURPOSE OF THE ACTIVE TRANSPORT, UH, ACTIVATION AS OPPOSED TO BEING, UM, QUITE SO SPECIFIC ON, UM, THE PARKING TYPES HERE. AND AS WE'VE SEEN FROM SOME PUBLIC COMMENT, I THINK THE, UH, BIKE RACKS THAT ARE PROHIBITED ARE, ARE PERHAPS A COUPLE THAT OUGHT TO, TO BE CONSIDERED TO GO BACK IN, UM, FOR SOME DENSITY PARKING. SO WHICH ONES WOULD YOU WANT ME TO PUT BACK IN, UM, THE CURVY ONE ON THE TOP LEFT. I'M OKAY WITH THE WAVE . UM, THE WAVE, THE WAVE DOESN'T WORK. IT'S, IT'S ALSO NOTORIOUSLY A PROBLEM WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO STACK AND IT CAN CAUSE DAMAGE FOR THE BICYCLE. LIKE THERE'S A REASON PEOPLE TRY TO JETTISON THAT THING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AROUND THE COUNTRY. 'CAUSE WE'VE HAD IT FOR LIKE 60 YEARS. ARE UH, CAN WE LOOK TOWARDS SOME OF THE OPTIONS THAT WERE IN THAT PUBLIC COMMENT? 'CAUSE THERE'S SOME, SOME ZOOMY ONES. , I'M JUST SAYING I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE GOT ROOM TO ABSORB THE EVOLUTION AND GROWTH AND ADAPTATION AND MAYBE IN, IN FIVE YEARS SOMEONE COMES UP WITH A REALLY EFFICIENT BIKE LIFT THAT MAKES E-BIKES STACKABLE AND YOU KNOW, THERE'S LIKE WAYS THAT THIS WILL ALL GET BETTER AND MM-HMM, AND, AND I DON'T WANT TO LOCK OURSELVES OUT. OKAY. I, HEATHER, AM I MISTAKEN THAT, THAT, UH, AS WRITTEN, THAT PROVIDES FOR THAT RIGHT. IT, IT'S NOT JUST THESE EXAMPLES. IT DOES SAY ALTERNATIVE BIKE RACKS ARE ALLOWED, PROVIDED THAT THEY MEET THE C CRITERIA. AND THIS IS GONNA GET SLIGHTLY MODIFIED TO SAY SPECIFICALLY SUBSECTIONS, UM, IJ AND K, UM, AND TO NOT USE ANY OF THE PROHIBITED STYLES. SO LET ME JUST, SO ALTERNATIVE BIO RACKS ARE ALLOWED, PROVIDED THAT THEY MEET THE CRITERIA IN SUBSECTIONS, IJ AND K AND DO NOT USE ANY OF THE PROHIBITED STYLES. SO IT HAS TO HAVE, UM, THE MEANS OF SECURING MM-HMM , UM, IT HAS TO MEET THAT, IT HAS TO MEET THE MOUNTING. UM, AND THEN IT HAS TO MEET THE RACK SHAPE STYLE. SO IT HAS TO IN GENERAL BE, UM, CONSTRUCTED OF SEALER, STAINLESS STEEL OR OTHER EQUIVALENT MATERIAL WITH EQUAL STRENGTH, LONGEVITY, AND TAMPER RESISTANCE. I'M, I'M COMFORTABLE WITH INJ. I'D LIKE TO SPLIT K INTO, INTO MATERIALS. LIKE IF WE'RE MANDATING METAL THAT'S TAMPER RESISTANT AND ALL THAT, I'M FINE WITH, BUT I'M, I'M UNCOMFORTABLE RESTRICTING OURSELVES TO THESE FOUR SHAPES BECAUSE SOMEONE MIGHT COME UP WITH A BETTER ONE. OKAY. YEAH. OKAY. UM, THIS IS, SINCE IT'S NOT A, A PARK SYSTEM OR A CITYWIDE SYSTEM OR COMMON MAINTENANCE AND REPLACEMENT IS AN ISSUE, I WONDER WHY WE NEED TO SPECIFY STYLE OF, OF RACKS OR WHY NOT LEAVE IT UP TO THE DEVELOPER OF THE PROJECT? BECAUSE THERE, HE'S, HE'S GOT A MARKET HE NEEDS TO SATISFY. SO IF YOU PROVIDE SPACING AND ROOM REQUIREMENTS, THAT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S ENOUGH AND LET HIM DECIDE ON HOW HE WANTS TO RACK THE BIKES. IF, IF I COULD JUST INTERJECT ON THAT BRIEFLY 'CAUSE THAT'S LESS AN OBJECTIVE CONCERN AND MORE A POLICY AND SPIRIT CONCERN. IF WE ASSUME MOST OF THESE PROJECTS ARE GOING TO BE AFFORDABLE HOUSING OF ONE FORM OR ANOTHER, OR AT LEAST PARTIALLY AFFORDABLE HOUSING, UH, THE GOAL IS TO ENSURE THAT THERE'S A QUALITY TO IT. A LOT OF THE, THE DESIGNS THAT YOU SEE CROSSED OUT AS, OH GOD, I HATE THE CROSS ONE ESPECIALLY, UM, ARE NOTORIOUS FOR WHAT AMOUNTS TO LIKE EITHER A CITY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY AT THE TIME, THEY DIDN'T MANDATE IT OR, OR THE DEVELOPER INVOLVED WANTED TO KIND OF CHEAP OUT ON THE BIKE PARKING. AND SO YOU END UP HAVING POORLY USED POORLY, NOT VERY EFFICIENT OUTCOMES. THE REASON THAT BJORN AND PBA TOOK THE TIME ON THE PREFERRED STYLE, YES, YOU DO WANT TO KEEP IT OPEN TO WHAT MIGHT COME IN THE FUTURE. AND ALSO BICYCLES MAY CHANGE TOO, BUT FOR WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, YOU ALSO WANT THE MINIMUM TO BE SOMETHING YOU KNOW, WILL BE USABLE AND ALSO WON'T CAUSE DAMAGE TO THE BICYCLE. AND A NUMBER OF THESE, WHEN YOU START TO LOCK THEM UP, END UP DOING THAT. UH, SO I MEAN THIS GOES [02:50:01] BACK TO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR AFFORDABLE UNITS ARE NOT BEING TREATED LIKE THEY'RE AFFORDABLE UNITS. MY MY ONLY COMMENT THOUGH IS IT SEEMS LIKE THE SELECTED FOUR ARE THE LEAST EFFICIENT PARKING SYSTEMS FOR BIKES. AND DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO THAT? I MEAN, THEY'RE NOT THOUGH. THOSE ARE, A LOT OF THESE ARE ACTUALLY FAIRLY COMMON AND CAN BE STACKED PRETTY EASILY NEXT TO EACH OTHER. WELL IF YOU, AND THEY'RE ALSO SAFE FOR IF YOU'RE LIFTING TOO. KEEP THAT IN MIND. THAT WAS THE OTHER CONSIDERATION OF THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE HAVING TO LIFT UP THEY BIKES, BUT THESE ARE ALL NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE IF YOU LINE UP THE FAR LEFT, IF YOU LINE UP THE, THE FAR LEFT YOU THE USED UH, PIPE SYSTEM LIKE THE, YOU KNOW, NEXT TO EACH OTHER, YOU GOT THIS SYSTEM RIGHT, THE MIDDLE, THE MIDDLE, UH, LOWER MIDDLE ONE. AND SO YEAH. SO, AND ALSO THE THE MIDDLE SYSTEM, THIS, THIS DRAWING DOESN'T, UH, DO IT VERY MUCH JUSTICE. BUT UH, WHEN, WHEN YOU GET THESE, THEY HAVE THESE TWO THIN BARS THAT COME DOWN. THE DRAWING KIND OF SHOWS THAT THERE, THERE'S ONE OUTSIDE. WE CAN, WE CAN TAKE A FIELD. YEAH, WE, IF YOU WANT TO, WE CAN TAKE A FIELD TRIP. WE'RE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO THOUGH, BUT NICE TRY. UM, BUT UH, THEY ARE NOT ONLY IS THAT MATERIAL ALMOST ALWAYS THINNER AND EASIER TO HA TO CUT AND THEN STEAL THE BICYCLE, BUT ALSO, UH, YOU HAVE VARIED LENGTHS OR VARIED WIDTHS FOR THE, FOR THE ACTUAL WHEELS AND THAT MAKES THAT HARD TO USE. I SPENT A LOT OF YEARS BIKING AROUND THE CITY. SO, SORRY, I GUESS THIS IS MY TREE. SO I DO HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS. ROGER, I'M SORRY. I DID NOT MEAN TO JUMP IN LIKE THAT. I'M GONNA GO WITH WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY ON THIS ONE AND GO WITH WHAT'S WRITTEN HERE. I THINK IT LOOKS GOOD AND I THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA. JUST AS ANOTHER ELEMENT HERE, WE, WE TALKED ABOUT AGE RESTRICTED DEVELOPMENT. I HAD ANOTHER AFFORDABLE DEVELOPER TELL ME THAT FOR SUPPORTIVE DEVELOPMENTS. AND I DON'T WANNA MAKE US TIER INTO KIND OF ANOTHER USE CASE, BUT SUPPORTIVE DEVELOPMENTS. IT WAS SPECIFICALLY AN AFFORDABLE PROJECT THAT FOCUSED ON VETERANS AND UH, HOMELESS. AND THAT HE SAID, LOOK, WE HAD TO BUILD ALL THIS BIKE PARKING AND NO ONE EVER USES IT. UM, MAYBE WE DON'T WANNA GO DOWN THAT TRACK. BUT DID THAT GET BROUGHT UP AT ALL FOR ANY OF THE AFFORDABLE DEVELOPERS? ANY OF THE CONSIDERATIONS ABOUT BIKE RACKS? WAS THAT EVER RAISED AS A BARRIER OR AN ISSUE? I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. UM, IT SEEMS LIKE SO LONG AGO, , SORRY. UM, I I HAVE TO, LEMME I HAVE TO LOOK AND WELL ANYWAY, I, THAT, THAT WOULD BE MY ONLY COMMENT IS IF THEY'VE PRESENTED ANY BARRIERS OR CERTAIN TYPES OF AFFORDABLE DEVELOPMENTS WHERE WE MIGHT DO SOMETHING LIKE WE DID HERE WITH AGE RESTRICTED TO LOWER THE REQUIREMENTS IF WE ANTICIPATE THAT POPULATION WON'T USE IT AS MUCH. UM, SOMETHING TO CONSIDER. THANKS. OKAY. I'M GONNA JUMP IN REAL QUICK. I AM SO SORRY. I'M NOT TRYING TO NITPICK YOUR POINT 'CAUSE IT'S GONNA COME OFF LIKE THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING AND I'M NOT. IT'S JUST I WAS, I USED, USED TO WORK WITH A LOT OF VETERAN CARE. UM, I CAN ABSOLUTELY SEE A CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE THERE MIGHT BE A POPULATION THAT'S NOT GONNA USE IT, ESPECIALLY 'CAUSE IT'S A HIGH, HIGH WHEELCHAIR USE OR HIGH KNEE ISSUES, ET CETERA. UM, UNFORTUNATELY WITH THOSE KIND OF PROJECTS, UH, POPULATION CHANGES SOMETIMES MAYBE EVEN A LITTLE FASTER THAN IT WOULD WITH OTHER, WITH OTHER UNITS TRYING TO SAY THIS AS DELICATELY AS POSSIBLE. SO IN THAT INSTANCE, YOU DON'T KNOW THE POPULATION YOU'RE GETTING. SO WHILE YES, YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE A LOT OF BIKE USERS AT FIRST, YOU ALSO MIGHT HAVE A POPULATION SHIFT WHERE RIDING A BIKE IS PART OF THE PHYSICAL THERAPY THEY'RE DOING. SO I, WE SHOULD KEEP IN MIND MAYBE IT'S NOT AS MUCH BUT KEEP IT SO THAT IT, IT CAN BALANCE OUT BOTH ENDS IS THE ONLY THING. NO, AND LIKE I SAID, IT WAS ANECDOTAL FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD. SO I'M SUPPORTIVE WITH KEEPING THINGS THE WAY THEY'RE, SO THE ANSWER IS YES. I DID GET PUSHBACK FROM AFFORDABLE HOUSING DEVELOPERS. THEY DID NOT LIKE THE RESTRICTED RACKS. SORRY, CAN I MAKE SOME POINTS ON DIFFERENT SECTIONS OF BICYCLE PARKING AWAY FROM THE RACK DESIGN? ABSOLUTELY. OKAY. UM, SO THE ACCEPTABLE PARKING FACILITIES AT 2 29 WE'RE SAYING A [02:55:01] FENCED AREA THAT'S COVERED IN LOCKABLE, UH, CONTROLLED ACCESS BIKE ROOM OR BIKE LOCKERS. AND I UNDERSTAND THOSE FROM A SECURITY PERSPECTIVE. I'M CURIOUS THOUGH, UM, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SPACE EFFICIENCY TO ALLOW FOR MAXIMUM AFFORDABLE UNITS. IS THERE A WAY TO INCLUDE THE POSSIBILITY THAT IF THERE IS A CONTROLLED ACCESS CAR GARAGE, IT COULD ALSO INCLUDE SAY A BIKE RACK AT THE TOP OF EVERYONE'S PARKING SPOT AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO LIFT. BECAUSE THE KEY IS WE'RE TRYING, WE HAVE TO WELL YOU'RE NOT LIFTING YOUR CAR AND THE GARAGE. NO, I MEAN LIKE IF YOUR BIKE SPACE IS ON TOP OF YOUR, AM I NOT UNDERSTANDING? I'M SAYING IF YOU'VE GOT A, HOWEVER BIG WE'RE SAYING PARKING SPOTS HAVE TO BE. IF, IF THE TWO FEET AT THE TOP OF THE KEY IS A IS A BIKE RACK AND THEN YOU PULL YOUR CAR UP TO YOUR BIKE AND ALL YOUR VEHICLES ARE IN ONE PLACE, , I WOULD, I'D BRING THAT TO BJORN TO ASK HIM. THAT'S WHAT I DO WITH ALL MY BIKE QUESTIONS. OKAY. BECAUSE HE'S WANNA, HE'S A GURU. I, I'M, I'M SORT OF CIRCLING THE DRAIN HERE ON LIKE, I, I APPRECIATE THE SPIRIT OF WHAT PBAC HAS BUILT IN HERE, BUT I DON'T WANNA BE SO RESTRICTIVE THAT, UM, OTHER MEANINGFUL PRO BIKE IDEAS ARE NOT DOABLE. THOSE, THAT BEING ONE OF THEM STORING YOUR BIKE NEAR YOUR CAR IF YOUR CAR IS ALSO LOCKED SAFELY. I HAVE MORE , UM, THE LINE FOR ALLOWING BIKES ON BALCONIES. I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THAT IS. MM-HMM. . UM, IF WE'RE SAYING THAT THE BUILDING MANAGEMENT HAS TO ALLOW THE BIKE IN BIKE STORAGE IN THE UNIT OR THE BALCONY, WE ALSO MIGHT NEED TO CONSIDER MANDATING THAT BICYCLES ARE ALLOWED IN THE ELEVATORS. 'CAUSE IF YOU WANNA STORE YOUR BIKE IN YOUR APARTMENT, BUT YOU CAN'T ROLL IT THROUGH THE BUILDING BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING STINGY ABOUT THE CARPET OR THE ELEVATOR WALLS, THERE YOU HAVE IT. THAT HAS HAPPENED TO ME. SO YEAH, SAME . IS THERE CONSENSUS ON THAT FROM THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS? WELL, I THINK THAT WAS ONLY AN OPTION. SO THEY, THAT WASN'T, UH, EVER COUNTED TOWARDS THE BICYCLE REQUIREMENT. IT WAS JUST LIKE, IF YOU WANT TO, SO I THINK BECAUSE IT'S OPTIONAL, I DON'T KNOW IF WE SHOULD MANDATE THAT THE ELEVATORS HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN SIZE TO ACCOMMODATE BICYCLES. I THINK THAT'S A VERY EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION FOR A, UH, DEVELOPER. THAT'S ALL. IT'S, IT'S A SHELL THAT THEY BE ALLOWED ON THE BALCONIES. IT IS IN THERE AS A SHELL. SO THEY HAVE TO ALLOW THE BIKE PARKING ON THE BALCONY OR IN THE UNIT. RIGHT. BUT THEN HOW DO, DO THEY GET THE BIKE UP THERE? YEAH. SO THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHY IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO ADD THE ELEVATOR. LIKE THEY HAVE TO BE ALLOWED. YEAH. UNLESS YOU'RE GONNA PUSH IT UP THE STAIRS, BUT THEN THAT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE. WELL SO THEN ARE WE REQUIRING ELEVATORS IN EVEN LIKE THREE STORY BUILDINGS? I THINK THEY ARE REQUIRED IF IT'S, THERE'S, I I MEAN I'D HAVE TO ASK THE, THE BUILDING AND INSPECT. I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE, I THINK IT'S OVER THREE STORIES. IS IT OVER THREE? OH YEAH. UM, AND I WAS JUST GONNA ADD FOR PURPOSES OF WHERE THERE IS ELEVATORS, UH, THOSE HAVE TO BE TO FIRE CODE AND THAT REQUIRES THEM HAVING EMERGENCY PERSONNEL AND GURNEYS AND WHATNOT. AND SO I WOULD ASSUME THAT WOULD ACCOMMODATE A BIKE IN THAT SPACE AS WELL. SO THEN MAYBE IT'S ADDING IN BUILDINGS THAT HAVE ELEVATORS, BICYCLES ARE ALLOWED IN THE ELEVATORS AND IN ALL BUILDINGS THEY ARE ALLOWED WITHIN INTERIOR HALLWAYS. YEAH. IT'S JUST MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE NOT STINGY ABOUT CLEANING. THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE GETTING AT. 'CAUSE I GUESS WE'VE BOTH WE'VE BOTH BEEN THE SITUATION OF THE ELEVATOR COULD FIT THE BIKE. THAT WAS NOT THE PROBLEM. IT WAS THE HOW DARE YOU TRACK YOUR MUD ON OUR CARPET. THAT WAS THE ISSUE. YEAH. OKAY. SO IS THERE CONSENSUS ON THAT? YEAH. SO WE'RE JUST CONSENSUS ABOUT ALLOWING TRANSPORT THROUGH AN ELEVATOR AND INTERIOR SPACE. SURE. JUST MAKING SURE . YEAH. OKAY. AND THEN WE'LL EARMARK TALKING WITH BJORN ABOUT HOW TO ACCOMMODATE YEAH. COMBO CARS BIKE STORAGE. MM-HMM. . MM-HMM. . OKAY. DOES ANYBODY ELSE HAVE BIKE RELATED? I, I PERSONALLY WAS PRETTY HAPPY WITH THIS SECTION, SO I WAS REALLY HERE [03:00:01] TO DEFEND THE, THE CHOICE OF THE FOUR. BUT BEYOND THAT, DOES ANYBODY HAVE, UH, MORE QUESTIONS RELATED? I, OKAY, WELL WITH THAT WE'LL THEN MOVE, UNLESS YOU HAVE MORE ON YOUR TOPIC LIST. WE'LL, WE'LL MOVE TO THE CATCHALL. HMM. INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT WAS STILL THERE. INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT. HOW COULD I FORGET? INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT. ALRIGHT, WE'LL MOVE TO INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT. OKAY. SO, UM, I'M LIKE, HOW DO I TALK ABOUT THIS WITHOUT BEING PREACHY HERE? SO , UM, INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT. UM, THIS IS A GROWING REQUIREMENT IN MANY JURISDICTIONS THAT AS YOU'RE MANAGING YOUR PARTICULARLY LANDSCAPING, THAT YOU'RE DOING IT IN A WAY THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE, UM, THE IMMEDIATE USE OF CHEMICALS AND TOXIC MATERIALS. AND SO THE IDEA IS TO, UM, TO LIMIT THAT, UM, THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT THE, UM, LET ME GET TO THE REQUIREMENT. I THINK IT'S KEEPING, SO IT'S JUST THERE, HERE WE GO. OKAY. 3 93. THANK YOU . I'M GETTING THERE. OKAY. SO, UM, THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT AN INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT PLAN THAT PROVIDES FOR ZERO USE OF CHEMICAL PESTICIDES, HERBICIDES, FERTILIZERS, OR OTHER SYNTHETIC CHEMICALS SHALL BE INCLUDED WITH THE LANDSCAPING PLAN AND IMPLEMENTED. UM, SO, UH, I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU WANT ME TO SAY ABOUT IT, BUT I DID GET PUSHBACK FROM SOME OF THE LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS ON REQUIRING THIS. UM, BUT I, SO I WANTED TO SHARE THAT, BUT I WILL LET YOU GUYS ASK QUESTIONS. OR WAS THE, WAS THE PUSHBACK JUST BASED ON IT BEING ZERO USE OF PESTICIDES OR IS PUSHBACK OF HAVING A PLAN AT ALL? I THINK IT WAS THE PLAN AND HA HOW, YOU KNOW, THE EXECUTION OF IT AND CONCERN ABOUT THAT. SO I'M GONNA, WELL, I'LL JUST, I'M GONNA START ASKING QUESTIONS. UM, HOW COMMON ARE, SO I HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN IN PAST PROJECTS A LOT OF PE PEST MANAGEMENT COME UP. HOW COMMON IS AN INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR SOME OF OUR PROJECTS? OR IS THIS JUST A STEP IN THE PROCESS THAT WE NORMALLY DON'T SEE? UM, IT'S, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S EVER SOMETHING THAT GETS CONDITIONED IN. UM, IT'S DEFINITELY JUST AN, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM CHEMICALS. YEAH. THERE'S, YOU KNOW, GLYPHOSATE IS A REALLY COMMON THING. YOU CAN BUY IT IN ANY STORE AND YOU CAN USE UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF IT. SAME THING WITH THINGS LIKE RAT POISON AND ANY NUMBER OF CHEMICALS. AND THEY'RE CHEAP AND PROLIFIC AND SO THEY TEND TO GET OVERUSED AND THEY EXPOSE PEOPLE TO HARMFUL CHEMICALS. SO IN MY OPINION, IT'S AN ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE THING. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MM-HMM. AFFORDABLE HOUSING. SO IS IT COMMON, ARE OTHER PEOPLE NECESSARILY DOING IT? NOT NECESSARILY. I MEAN, UM, IT'S, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHAT, I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THE PUSHBACK AND THE CONTEXT OF IS THIS A THING THAT THEY'RE DOING ALL THE TIME AND THEY'RE JUST LOOKING FOR ANY OPPORTUNITY NOT TO, OR IS THIS JUST SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE NEW TO THEM? THAT'S ALL. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU THAT THIS IS NOT ONLY NEEDED, BUT SOMETHING THE COUNTY'S BEEN PUSHING TO DO WITH ZERO PESTICIDE ORDINANCES ALL THROUGHOUT MM-HMM. . AND SO I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THAT AT ALL. UH, I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHY PUSHBACK ON WHAT IS FRANKLY A COMMONLY SMILED UPON ISSUE AT THIS POINT HERE. SO IT IT MAKES, IT MAKES MAINTENANCE HARDER. YEAH. AND MORE EXPENSIVE. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S TYPICALLY WHY YOU GET PUSHBACK ON IT. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING IS JUST THAT IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE AND IT'S LABOR INTENSIVE. UM, WHICH IMPLIES THEY WOULD GO OUT AND GET THE RAT POISON AND THE EVERYTHING ELSE IF NOT GIVEN THE RESTRICTION. YEAH. ALRIGHT. OKAY. OTHER QUESTIONS? I'M SORRY. NO OTHER QUESTIONS. DO WE HAVE ANY BROADER STANDARDS FOR EVEN DISCRETIONARY PROJECTS WHEN IT COMES TO IPMP? I KNOW WE DO A KIND OF ON CITY PROPERTIES, BUT I DON'T, NOT THAT I'M, I DON'T, I'M NOT AWARE, UH, I CAN OFFER THAT IT COMES UP KIND OF CASE BY CASE ON DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE IN RIPARIAN AREAS WHERE WE'RE DOING, UM, RESTORATION WORK OR ONGOING, UH, ACTIVITIES IN A NEAR, THERE'LL BE, UM, BUILT IN MITIGATION MEASURES THAT PROHIBIT CERTAIN THINGS, UH, APPROXIMATE TO SENSITIVE HABITAT AND RESOURCES. I'M THINKING DARREN, WITH THE LAB CON, DIDN'T WE CONDITION [03:05:01] THAT RIGHT? YEAH. OKAY. THANKS. CURIOUS, UM, IF THERE'S ANY OTHER EXAMPLES OF OTHER MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED THIS, UH, IN, IN THEIR ODS? I DON'T KNOW OFFHAND. OKAY. OKAY. WELL IF THERE ARE ANY QUESTIONS, UH, I'LL KICK OFF JUST FOR FEEDBACK. I VERY MUCH SUPPORT HAVING AN INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT PLAN AND AGREE WITH YOU THAT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY AN ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE ISSUE AND FRANKLY, THE KIND OF PUSHBACK YOU WERE GETTING PROBABLY SPEAKS TO EXACTLY WHY WE'D NEED IT. UM, START WITH DARREN. YEAH, I DIDN'T INTEND TO RAISE MY HAND, BUT YEAH, I THINK SUPPORTIVE AN IPMP HERE, I THINK IT'S WORTH EXPLORING A BROADER CITY STANDARD AS WELL, SO THANKS. YEAH. I REALLY SUPPORT THIS. UM, I THINK THE CHEMICAL BURDEN ON, UH, OUR COMMUNITIES AND ESPECIALLY COMMUNITIES THAT WOULD BE LIVING IN UM, AFFORDABLE HOUSING AREAS REALLY DESERVE EXTRA PROTECTION. AND, UM, I THINK THIS IS, UM, SOMETHING THAT IS, YOU KNOW, SHOULD BE DEFINITELY, UH, INTEGRATED INTO OUR OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. AND, UM, I THINK, I THINK OUR CITY IS DOING THIS WITH SOME OF OUR PARKS OR YOU KNOW, AND I KNOW, UM, OUR CITY SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN DOING IT TOO FOR A WHILE NOW. SO I THINK THIS IS A REALLY GOOD THING. I'M SUPPORTIVE OF IT. I'M SUPPORTIVE OF IT AND WOULD ENCOURAGE STAFF TO CONSIDER WHAT OTHER AREAS OF R CODE WOULD NEED TO BE IN PLACE FOR THE, AND IMPLEMENTED TO HAVE TEETH. YEAH. OKAY. WELL WITH THAT WE HAVE COVERED I THINK THE LAST OF THE LIST OF TOPICS THAT STAFF HAD REQUESTED. MM-HMM. . OKAY. UM, I'M JUST GONNA ASK HEATHER, WERE THERE OTHER SPECIFIC TOPICS YOU WANTED US TO COVER? IF NOT, WE'LL DO A, WE'LL DO KIND OF A CATCHALL FOR EACH OF THE COMMISSIONERS, BUT YEAH, LET'S, LET'S GO FOR THAT. OKAY. UM, I'M GONNA START WITH, I'M JUST GONNA CALL NAME BY NAME TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS, CONCERNS, CHANGES OUTSIDE OF THE TOPICS WE'VE ALREADY COVERED. I'LL START WITH JESSICA. I HAVE A FEW. YES. UM, ONE WHICH WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT YET IS IN OPEN SPACE SECTION EIGHT AND I DON'T KNOW THE LINE NUMBER QUITE YET, UH, ABOUT, OH, ABOUT OUTDOOR SEATING. IF SOMEONE CAN BEAT ME TO IT. OH, HERE WE GO. FOUR 13. UM, I THINK THE RATIO OF OUTDOOR SEATING IS TOO HIGH WITH ONE SEAT PER THREE UNITS OR ONE BENCH, UM, PER FOUR UNITS. I DID SOME BACK OF THE ENVELOPE MATH AND IF YOU'VE GOT A 60 UNIT BUILDING, YOU'RE GONNA BE REQUIRED TO HAVE 1500 SQUARE FEET OF OPEN SPACE BY THE 25 SQUARE FEET PER UNIT IN UH, SECTION A. AND THAT 60 UNIT BUILDING WITH A HUNDRED AND WITH 1500 SQUARE FEET OF OPEN SPACE IS GONNA NEED TO HAVE 20 SEATS OR 15 BENCHES IN WHAT COULD FEASIBLY BE A 15 FOOT BY 100 FOOT OPEN SPACE. AND THAT FEELS EXCESSIVE. SO I DON'T, I HAVEN'T DONE THE MATH TO SAY WHAT IT WOULD, WHAT IT OUGHT TO BE, BUT I THINK OUR CURRENT RATIO IS TOO HIGH. AND I ALSO THINK THAT THE BENCH SHOULD BE AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE. 'CAUSE MAYBE YOU MAKE A BENCH THAT SEATS THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE. SO I'M HAPPY TO LEAVE IT TO YOU TO TWEAK THAT. MM-HMM, . YEAH. AND I, YEAH, I WAS LOOKING AT THAT AND I APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK. UM, WOULD YOU, THE OTHER OPTION I WAS THINKING MIGHT BE WORTH CONSIDERING IS, UM, NUMBER OF BENCHES PER HUNDRED SQUARE FEET. SO INSTEAD OF SAYING PER UNIT SAYING LIKE, YOU KNOW, AT, YOU KNOW, SEATING FOR A MINIMUM OF TWO ADULTS PER A HUNDRED SQUARE FEET OF OPEN SPACE OR IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE COULD GO FROM THERE. I'M GONNA, I'M GONNA LOOK TO OUR SENIOR ADVOCATE TO SEE HOW THAT SOUNDS TO FOLKS WHO MIGHT BE DOING SOME SITTING IN OPEN SPACE. NOT TO GENERALIZE STANDARD IT HAS TO DO WITH, UM, TRAILS AND, AND PATHWAYS WHERE THERE'S A BENCH EVERY, I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE, THE STANDARD IS. THERE'S A BENCH EVERY AND, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE TWO BENCHES IN A HUNDRED SQUARE FEET IS NOT VERY MANY. [03:10:01] GO FOR A WALK WITH THREE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS, BUT TWO OF 'EM CAN'T SIT DOWN. . YEAH. I, I I THINK WE JUST NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT MORE. LIKE I SAID, I, I DON'T HAVE THE MATH FOR YOU TONIGHT, BUT, BUT ONE SEAT PER THREE UNITS DIDN'T, THE MATH DIDN'T MATH FOR ME. THIS, THIS MIGHT BE AN EXAMPLE WHERE A DIAGRAM TO ACTUALLY LAY OUT WHAT THAT SPATIALLY LOOKS LIKE MIGHT BE BENEFICIAL JUST TO, 'CAUSE I, I SEE OUR SENIOR ADVOCATE'S POINT, I ALSO VERY MUCH SEE YOUR POINT OF THIS DOES FEEL LIKE A LOT, BUT IT'S ALSO GREAT TO SEE IT SPATIALLY AND JUST TO KEEP IN MIND HOW MANY PEOPLE MIGHT BE MOVING TOGETHER. RIGHT. AND MAYBE IT'S TIERS, MAYBE IT'S WHEN IT'S TWO TO 20 UNITS, YOU NEED THIS MANY WHEN IT'S, 'CAUSE LIKE AT A CERTAIN POINT, IF YOU'RE GETTING TO, UH, MY, MY ROUGH MATH WAS AT 60 UNITS, LIKE MM-HMM. . IT JUST, IT JUST GETS TO BE AGGRESSIVE. UM, SO THAT WAS ONE WE TALKED ABOUT WINDOW SHADES. WE TALKED ABOUT VINYL. OH YES. ANOTHER THING THAT, UM, WILL BE RELEVANT TO THE, UM, SENIOR STAKES ON BUILDING DESIGN SECTION E, GROUND FLOOR, GROUND FLOOR RESIDENTIAL ON ARTERIAL ROADWAYS. MM-HMM. , I WOULD LIKE TO STRIKE OPTION ONE BEING A FINISHED FLOOR HEIGHT OF AT LEAST 24 INCHES ABOVE GRADE OF THE PUBLIC SIDEWALK BECAUSE THAT IS NECESSITATING STEPS ON WHAT IS OTHERWISE GROUND FLOOR RESIDENTIAL AND WILL UNDO WHAT I THINK IS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR A, UH, A MOBILITY UNIT. MM-HMM. . SO I DON'T WANT US TO HAVE THAT OPTION FOR DIFFERENTIATING THE GROUND FLOOR RESIDENTIAL AND WOULD ENCOURAGE CONSIDERATION OF NEW ADDITIONS INTO THAT SECTION. POTENTIALLY LIGHTING, POTENTIALLY, UH, AN AWNING LIKE BORROW FROM ENTRYWAY SECTION TWO TO TRY AND DIFFERENTIATE THAT GROUND FLOOR RESIDENTIAL WITHOUT ADDING STEPS. SO THE, THE IDEA WAS THAT THERE, THERE COULD BE A RAMP. I MEAN THAT WAS KIND OF, I MEAN, THEY'D STILL HAVE TO MEET A DA SO A RAMP MIGHT BE THERE, BUT IF, IF THE COMMISSION WOULD LIKE, EVERYONE WOULD LIKE US TO REMOVE THAT GRADE CHANGE, WE CAN, WE CAN STRIKE THAT IF THAT'S THE, OH, I KINDA LIKE IT. I LIKE THE DIFFERENTIATION IS IF WE CAN STILL ACCOMMODATE, UH, UM, THE A DA REQUIREMENTS, I THINK IT LOOKS NICE AND IT LOOKS LIKE A NEIGHBORHOOD IF WE CAN MEET THE A DA REQUIREMENTS. RIGHT. THAT WAS THE ONLY PROBLEM THAT YOU HAD WITH IT. YEAH. AND, AND I, I THINK WE JUST WOULD BENEFIT FROM MORE OPTIONS. WE'VE GOT FOUR HERE V VERSUS THE ENTRYWAY DIFFERENTIATION FOR THE, THE ENTRANCE EMPHASIS. WE'VE GOT 10 AND I THINK THAT GROUND FLOOR RESIDENTIAL TWO, THREE, AND FOUR ARE REQUIRING A FAIR BIT OF SPACE TO MAKE IT WORK. MY CONCERN IS THAT SOMEONE'S GONNA SAY, GREAT, I'LL THROW TWO STEPS ON IT, OR I'LL THROW A LITTLE RAMP ON IT AND I'VE MET THIS, UM, AND THEY AREN'T GONNA WANNA PAY FOR LANDSCAPING STRIPS AND WALLS. BUT I, BUT SO THAT'S WHERE I'M LIKE, MAYBE WE CAN ADD AN INSET OPTION, AN AWNING OPTION, A TRIM OPTION, SOMETHING THAT'LL DIFFERENTIATE IT, BUT POTENTIALLY REQUIRE LESS FOOTAGE. SO THE, THE IMPETUS FOR THIS IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN THE ENTRANCE ARTICULATION. UM, THE IMPETUS OF THIS IS TO SORT OF PROVIDE SOME SEPARATION FROM THE UNITS THAT ARE ON THESE ARTERIAL ROADS FROM, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC SIDEWALK WHERE YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, HAVE A HIGH TRAFFIC AREA. SO THE IDEA WAS, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE'S, AND I FORGET WHICH IS THE ONE THAT DOESN'T HAVE IT, BUT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A DEVELOPMENT IN PETALUMA WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE A BUNCH OF THESE DOORS THAT ARE AT GROUND LEVEL AT SIDEWALK AND THEY, YOU KNOW, THEIR DOORS JUST OPEN RIGHT ONTO THE SIDEWALK AND THERE'S SORT OF AN ODD SENSE OF LIKE, WHERE'S THE PUBLIC REALM END? WHERE DOES THIS PERSON HAVE THEIR SPACE? WHEREAS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THAT PET PROJECT THAT, UM, HAS THAT BEAUTIFUL SALMON COLOR, THEY, UM, THEY HAVE THAT LOW WALL WITH SOME TREES. SO EVEN THOUGH IT'S RIGHT ON, ON, YOU KNOW, A BUSY ROAD, THERE'S THAT VERY CLEARLY, LIKE THIS IS OUR HOUSING SPACE BACK HERE. AND SO THE, I IRONICALLY, THE, THIS ACTUALLY CAME ORIGINALLY FROM AN ANOTHER THING WHERE IT WAS LIKE, OKAY, YOU COULD, YOU KNOW, DO THE RAISED UP, CREATE THAT NICE PORCH THING. AND THEN, BECAUSE WE WANTED TO ADD IN OTHER OPTIONS, WE HAD SEVERAL. UM, THERE ORIGINALLY WAS AN OPTION TO DO THE BULLARD LIGHTING AS A SEPARATOR. AND I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER WHY THAT CAME OUT. AND [03:15:01] I WANNA, I DON'T, I DON'T WANNA THROW ANOTHER DEPARTMENT UNDER THE BUS IF I CAN'T REMEMBER FOR SURE. BUT I KNOW THERE WAS A REASON THAT THAT CAME OUT. BUT I'M, WE CAN ADD IT BACK IN AS AN OPTION. UM, AND THEN IF IT'S A PROBLEM THEN, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST WON'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT . BUT, UM, IT WAS ALSO RECOMMENDED TO, WASN'T THERE? THERE WAS, LET'S SEE, NO, THAT WAS FOR A DIFFERENT ONE. OKAY. JUST TO ADD A LITTLE CONTEXT IN LOOKING THROUGH SOME EXAMPLES FOR SOME OF THESE OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS IN OTHER CITIES, ADJACENCY TO A ROADWAY, THEIR ONLY OPTION IS THAT FINISHED FLOOR HEIGHT ADJUSTMENT. SO I LIKE THAT WE HAVE MORE OPTIONS, BUT YEAH, I THINK IF WE CAN FIND MORE OPTIONS THAT GET INTO THE VEIN OF THE DESIGN ELEMENT, WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE MORE OPTIONS IS ALWAYS BETTER. YEAH. I THINK IN, UH, A RECESS DOOR COULD DO A LOT TO DELINEATE WHAT IS PUBLIC SPACE VERSUS SOMEONE'S PRIVATE RESIDENCE. SO I'D CONSIDER PERHAPS THINKING THROUGH THAT ADDITION. UM, AND I THINK THAT MIGHT BE IT. , I SAY VERY HESITANTLY. OH, SORRY, I LIED ENTRYWAY. WE'VE GOT 10 AND I WANTED TO ADD AN 11TH OF CHANGING THE PAVING SURFACE MATERIAL, UM, AS AN ENTRYWAY. 'CAUSE YOU COULD HAVE LIKE SOME REALLY NICE TILE THAT THAT SHOWS THAT THIS IS THE, THE BUILDING ENTRANCE AND THEY HAVE TO PICK THREE. SO I THINK THAT COULD BE ADDED AS AN 11TH CONSENSUS. YEAH, IT'S, IT'S CERTAINLY WORTH LOOKING AT. OKAY. AND ARE YOU, IS THAT ALL FOR NOW? YES. OKAY. ROGER? YES. UH, JUST A FEW THINGS, BUT ON, UH, PAGE SIX MM-HMM. , YOU PUT THAT IMAGE ON THE SCREEN, IS IT POSSIBLE, COULD YOU PUT THAT IMAGE ON THE SCREEN ON PAGE SIX OR SLIDE SIX? PAGE SIX. OKAY. HOLD ON JUST A MINUTE. SO THIS THE CIRCULATION AND ACCESS? YEP. OKAY. HOLD WHAT'S ON? OKAY. YEAH. UH, AND THIS RELATES TO MY COMMENT ABOUT A SITE PLAN THAT REPRESENTS MORE OF THE NATURE OF WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. UM, YOU KNOW, MY, MY SENSE IS THAT THERE WOULD BE FOUR, YOU KNOW, SOME BIG BUILDINGS HERE WITH, WITH MAYBE 20 UNITS PER BUILDING AND 20 ENTRY POINTS PER BUILDING. AND, UH, AND SOME ARE PUBLIC STREETS, SOME ARE PRIVATE STREETS, SOME ARE ALLEYS. BUT THERE'S, THIS DOESN'T REALLY REPRESENT THE, THE NATURE OF THE PROJECT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, ALTHOUGH I UNDERSTAND IT WORKS FOR PEDESTRIAN CROSSINGS, BUT IT'S NOT, NOT IN A PROJECT THAT WILL HAPPEN. SO I GUESS I'M TRYING TO GET SOMETHING MORE REALISTIC THAT YOU CAN USE AND THEN RE AND USE IT SEVERAL TIMES FOR DIFFERENT POINTS. SO IT'S, IT IS THE SAME INGREDIENT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO, TO REFER TO. YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M, WHAT I'M SAYING? MM-HMM. . OKAY. UM, THE OTHER IS, UH, FIGURE THIS, THIS IS, UM, PAGE 14, WHICH IS LANDSCAPING SEVEN. LANDSCAPING. I AM SORRY, WHAT? WHICH ONE? SEVEN LANDSCAPING. MM-HMM. . CAN YOU SHOW IT OUT ON THE SCREEN? SO LET'S, UM, IS THE TRADE ON PAGE 14? HEATHER? I'M SORRY. . OH, OKAY. I DON'T HAVE THAT ONE IN THE SLIDE PRESENTATION. HOLD ON, LET ME, OKAY. HOLD ON A SECOND. HERE WE GO. UH, NOT THAT ONE. THIS IS GONNA TAKE ME A MINUTE TO PULL IT UP HERE [03:20:01] FOR YOU. FOR EVERYONE LISTENING AT HOME, WE WILL BE GETTING ELEVATOR MUSIC NEXT MEETING. OKAY, HERE WE GO. OKAY. DID I JUST PASS BY IT? NOPE, IT'S STOP. THERE WE GO. GOT IT. YEAH. ON UNDER TREE PLANTING, UH, ITEM THREE, TREE PLANTERS SHALL INCLUDE ROOT BARRIERS AND SURFACE GRATES. WERE IMPLANTED ADJACENT TO SIDEWALKS AND PAVEMENT. IF IT'S ADJACENT TO A SIDEWALK, I DON'T THINK YOU NEED A TREE. WELL, OR A GRATE IF IT'S IN THE SIDEWALK, IT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. SO MY, I GUESS I WOULD HOPEFULLY HAVE MORE PARKWAYS THAN TREE GRAVES. UH, YOU KNOW, URBAN CONDITION, I UNDERSTAND TREE GRAVES, BUT IN RESIDENTIAL, UNLESS IT'S A VERY CROWDED SIDEWALK OR, OR IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S JUSTIFIED. SO IT'S JUST A QUESTION. I MEAN, DO WE REALLY WANT TO COVER THAT OR CAN WE, I MEAN, I DON'T THINK WE WANNA REQUIRE THREE GREAT. FOR ALL TREES IN PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. WELL, THIS ISN'T PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. THIS IS ON THE PRIVATE PROPERTY ADJACENT TO SIDEWALKS AND PAVEMENT. ALRIGHT. SO IT'S PRIVATE RIGHT OF WAY OR PRIVATE PARKWAY OWNED BY THE MM-HMM. PROJECT. MM-HMM. . SO IF IT'S IN THE PARKWAY, I DON'T THINK YOU NEED A TRIGGER GRADE. OKAY. IS THAT, I I WAS GONNA SAY, I THINK TREE WELLS FEEL LIKE A MORE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY USE CASE. OKAY. I, YEAH, I CAN. UM, I THINK WE SHOULD HIGHLIGHT THAT. LIKE I SAID, I THINK THERE ARE SOME OTHER ENGINEERING SOLUTIONS IF IT WILL GO AGAINST PAYMENT. BUT IF IT'S JUST ON PRIVATE PROPERTY, I THINK WE MIGHT NOT NEED A PLANTER BOX. I MEAN, JUST HAVE IT PLANTED IN THE GROUND. YEAH. I MEAN, IT, IT REQUIRES IT GREAT IF THERE'S PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC THAT'S CROWDED AND NEEDS TO WALK ON IT, BUT OTHERWISE I'M NOT SURE IT REQUIRES YEAH. YEAH. I MEAN, IT CAN, THIS CAN COME OUT IF YOU GUYS WANT IT TO COME OUT. AGAIN, I WAS KIND OF ON THE FENCE OF WHETHER TO TAKE IT OUT OR NOT, AND I WAS JUST TRYING TO KIND OF STICK WITH CONSISTENCY. BUT I'M, I'M HAPPY TO, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THE ROOT BARRIERS. I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THE TRIGGER RATE. OKAY. YEAH. AND THEN THAT SECTION KINDA SHOWS THAT SOME ODD VERTICAL CURBING THAT GOES DOWN BESIDES THE TREE, WHICH I'M NOT SURE IS REAL. YOU SEE THE SIX FOOT MINIMUM? MM-HMM. . YEAH. YOU'RE NOT GONNA HAVE VERTICAL CURBS LIKE THAT. OKAY. OKAY. UM, ON ON PAGE, UH, 16 LIGHTING, IT SEEMED LIKE THE, UM, THE GOAL IS NOT TO HAVE THE LIGHT SOURCE IN YOUR FACE MM-HMM. EITHER A POLE OR, OR A BOWLER. SO IF YOU COULD JUST COVER THAT WITH SAY, A FULL CUTOFF FIXTURE MM-HMM. . UM, AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. I MEAN, A 36 HIGH FIXTURE CAN BE A REAL PROBLEM TO HAVE THE LIGHT SOURCE NOT IN YOUR FACE. UM, YEAH. BUT IF IT'S A FULL CUTOFF FIXTURE, THEN IT MIGHT, UM, IMPROVE THAT. UM, BUT I, I THINK THE GOAL IS TO NOT HAVE THE LIGHT SOURCE VISIBLE. SO I THINK THE WAY TO DESCRIBE THAT IS A FULL CUTOFF FIXTURE. AND THEN THE LAST ONE IS ON, ON PAGE 19, WHICH IS THE OCCUPIED ROOF AREA. MM-HMM. . UM, I GUESS MY CONCERN IS THAT THE, THIS IS A PRIVATE ROOF DECK, RIGHT? MM-HMM. AND THE ABILITY TO CON, I'M NOT SURE WHY WE WANT A HEDGE UP THERE OR PLANTING, BUT, UM, BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE MAINTENANCE OR UPKEEP OR LEAKAGE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IS DIFFICULT. AND YOU'RE, YOU'RE, UM, I, I'M NOT SURE WHY WE WANT THAT OR WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SOFTENING THE BALCONY OR SOFTENING THE EDGE OR WHAT THE PURPOSE IS. BUT I, I WONDER IF YOU WANT TO REQUIRE PLANTING AND PLANTERS [03:25:02] EXPENSIVE WATERPROOFING WEIGHT. I'M NOT SURE WHERE IT CAME FROM. SO TYPICALLY SPEAKING, IF YOU HAVE AN OCCUPIED ROOF, AND THAT'S GONNA BE THE OPEN SPACE FOR THAT BUILDING, THE IDEA IS THE PLANTERS PROVIDE SOME GREEN SPACE. UM, SO THERE'S THE PLANTS AND THEN THERE'S ALSO SOME BENEFITS TO HAVING PLANTS ON THE ROOF THAT PROVIDE, UM, SOME COOLING IMPACTS AS WELL. UM, AND SOME ABSORPTION, UH, OF WATER. BUT, UH, AGAIN, IT, IT, IT'S UP TO THE CONSENSUS OF THE COMMISSION IF, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE OR NOT WANT TO HAVE. SO GI, GI GIVEN THAT IT'S AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THAT'S, THIS IS A VERY EXPENSIVE THING TO DO. 'CAUSE YOU HAVE TO WATERPROOF IT AND, AND STRUCTURAL, UM, AND YOU HAVE, YOU NEED IRRIGATION ACCESS TO IT. UM, AND THEN I, I THINK 80% OF THE TIME, EVENTUALLY THEY'LL, IT'LL GO, YOU'LL DIE AND PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO TAKE CARE OF IT, AND YOU GOTTA MESS UP ON THE ROOF THAT YOU, YOU DON'T CONTROL. SO I'M JUST WONDERING IF IT'S A GOOD IDEA, THAT'S ALL. WELL, AND IF AT THE SAME TIME, IF YOU'RE ABLE TO DEVELOP MORE OF YOUR SITE WITH THREE OR FOUR STORIES IN WHAT WOULD BE OTHERWISE OPEN SPACE AND PUT YOUR OPEN SPACE ON THE ROOF, AND THAT IS A TRADE OFF THAT'S VIABLE, THEN, UM, THEN IT, IT MAY BE EXPENSIVE TO ADD THE WATERPROOFING, BUT IF YOU'RE, I MEAN, THE, IT'S JUST AN OPTION THAT'S OUT THERE. IT'S A CONCEIVABLE OPTION. SO THE IDEA IS DESIGNING FOR WHAT'S CONCEIVABLE, BUT AGAIN, IT, I'M HAPPY TO HAVE FEEDBACK FROM THE COMMISSION ON WHETHER YOU GUYS JUST THE QUESTION OF WHETHER WE WANNA REQUIRE IT. IF YOU DON'T REQUIRE IT TO, IT DOESN'T MATTER. OKAY. THAT'S IT. CAN I ASK A, A QUESTION ABOUT THIS ONE? MM-HMM. , COULD IT BE THAT THE USABLE, COMMON OPEN SPACE AS REQUIRED AT FOUR 10 AT 25 SQUARE FEET PER UNIT IS THE ROOF THAT, LIKE, THAT'S THE DEVELOPER COULD FULFILL USABLE, COMMON OPEN SPACE WITH AN OPEN ROOF DECK THAT IS OPEN TO ALL OF THE RESIDENTS? MM-HMM. . OKAY. THEN I THINK WE HAVE TO KEEP PLANTING, UH, THE, THE OCCUPIED ROOF IS ALWAYS GONNA BE PUBLIC FOR THE RESIDENTS. IT WON'T BE UNIT 34 B'S ROOFTOP. IT'LL BE THE ENTIRE BUILDING'S ROOFTOP. OH, OKAY. MM-HMM. . SO I THINK, OKAY. I'M, SO THEN, YEAH, I THINK WE, I I WOULD BUMP IT TO 20, UM, IF WE'RE, IF AN OPEN SPACE COULD BE A ROOF. MM-HMM. , I, I, I DON'T WANT IT TO JUST BE BLANK AND THEN A COUPLE PLANTER BOXES. THAT'S NOT A VERY ENRICHING OPEN SPACE FOR RESIDENTS. SO MAYBE WE NEED TO ACTUALLY BEEF UP WHAT THE OCCUPIED ROOF LOOKS LIKE, IF IT'S GONNA BE TICKING THAT BOX. MM-HMM. . AND THEN, AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, IT'S NOT COMMON IN PETALUMA. IT'S CONCEIVABLE. YEP. AND IT IS COMMON IN OTHER PLACES WHERE THAT'S THE OPEN SPACE. THAT, THAT BEING SAID, IF WE DO GET SOMEBODY WHO LOOKS AT THIS, DOESN'T WANT THE OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENT AND GOES, OH, GREAT, I CAN PUT SOME PLANTERS UP THERE. IT'S A PARK. MM-HMM. . AND THEN THEY'RE ONLY, ESPECIALLY IN THE EXAMPLE THAT I THINK YOU LAID OUT EARLIER, WHERE IT'S SURROUNDED BY OTHER BUILDINGS OR HOMES AND JUST THIS IN THE MIDDLE MM-HMM. , WE'D BE DOING THEM A GREAT DISSERVICE NOT TO HAVE HAD MORE REQUIREMENTS FOR, FOR GREEN ACTIVITY ON THE ROOF IF IT'S GOING TO, IF IT'S GOING TO REPLACE THEIR OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENT. YEAH. IF IT'S GONNA BE AN OCCUPIED ROOF. AND AGAIN, THAT'S YEAH. LIKE ONCE YOU'RE MAKING IT AN OCCUPIED ROOF, YOU'VE ALREADY INCREASED YOUR COST BECAUSE YOU'RE, YOU HAVE DIFFERENT STANDARDS THAN IF IT'S JUST A REGULAR ROOF. 'CAUSE YOU KNOW, SUPPORTING PEOPLE WELL, WELL, RIGHT. BUT YEAH. IS WHAT I'M SAYING IS THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO AN OCCUPIED ROOF. THEY COULD JUST DO THE OPEN SPACE. MM-HMM. . SO IF THEY'RE GOING TO DO THE OCCUPIED ROOF AND HAVE IT REPLACED THE OPEN SPACE, THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE TO DO, PROVIDE MORE, MORE LIFE ON THE ROOF AND ACTIVITY THAN JUST SOME PLANTERS IN THE CORNER. MM-HMM. AND I AGREED IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE, BUT IT'D ONE THING IF WE WERE REQUIRING OCCUPIED ROOFS, BUT WE'RE NOT MM-HMM. BECAUSE YOU, I MEAN, I'M, I'M NOT A BUILDING, UH, MATERIALS EXPERT EITHER, BUT, BUT YOU COULD KNOCK OUT A, A FAIR BIT OF YOUR 25 SQUARE FEET PER UNIT ON THE ROOF. AND NOW YOU'VE GOT A LITTLE PATCH OF PLAYGROUND, A LITTLE PATCH OF GRASS, AND A, A PRETTY BARREN ROOF. AND SO YOU'VE, YOU'VE MADE YOUR OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENT. SO YEAH. CAN WE BRAINSTORM WHAT [03:30:01] OCCUPIED ROOF ENRICHMENT COULD LOOK LIKE? I WONDER IF WE WANT THAT. OH, MAYBE WE SAY OCCUPIED ROOF CANNOT COUNT TOWARDS YOUR COMMON OPEN SPACE. THAT'S AN IDEA, HEIDI. WELL, I THINK IT, I PERSONALLY THINK WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO COUNT IT, BUT IT SHOULD HAVE TO BE MORE THAN JUST, UH, 10% PLANNERS. WE SHOULD HAVE STANDARDS FOR IT. LIKE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE BENCHES AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE THIS, AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE IRRIGATED PLANTS AND HAVE IT BE LIKE A REAL OUTDOOR SPACE, NOT JUST YEAH. A CONCRETE ROOF WITH YEAH. PLANTERS IN THE CORNER THAT ARE DEAD. SO MAYBE WE COULD LOOK AT HAVING SOME STANDARDS FOR THAT IF THEY'RE GOING TO USE IT AS THEIR OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENT. I, I WAS JUST SCROLLING THROUGH BECAUSE I SUSPECTED SOME OF THIS WAS COVERED, BUT CALL THIS SIMPLISTIC IN TERMS OF BRAINSTORMING, BUT WE HAVE REQUIREMENTS IN PLACE FOR WHAT OPEN SPACE SHOULD LOOK LIKE ON THE GROUND. MM-HMM. MINUS MAYBE PUTTING SEVERAL LARGE TREES UP THERE. ALTHOUGH A FEASIBLE, WE COULD, WE SHOULD DO IT AT THIS POINT. BUT, UM, IN TERMS OF LIKE PLANTS, BENCHES, SPACING, ALL THAT, WE HAVE THOSE STANDARDS ELSEWHERE. MM-HMM. , CAN'T WE REFER TO THAT WITH SOME MODIFICATION FOR PATHING ON THE ROOF IF THEY'RE GOING TO USE IT AS THEIR ACTUAL OPEN SPACE. SO IF THEY'RE GONNA SAY IT'S A PLAYGROUND, IT HAS TO BE A PLAYGROUND, THEY'RE GONNA SAY IT'S A GARDEN. IT'S GOTTA BE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? NO, I, OKAY. THAT AS IT CAME OUT, IT DID OCCUR TO ME, A KID ON THE SWING, ON THE ROOF IS A HORRIBLE IDEA. . UH, BUT FINE. IF THEY'RE GONNA PLAY, IF THEY'RE GONNA CLAIM IT'S A BASKETBALL COURT, IT BETTER BE A BASKETBALL COURT. IF THEY'RE GONNA CLAIM IT'S A GARDEN, IT BETTER BE A GARDEN. MM-HMM. . THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING AT. SURE, SURE. UM, LET ME, LET ME SEE IF I CAN REWORK ON THIS, UM, . ALRIGHT. I'M SO GLAD THAT WAS RECORDED. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE MORE ROGER DONE. OKAY, HEIDI. OKAY. THANK YOU. UM, I JUST HAVE SOME QUESTIONS OR IDEAS THAT I GOT, MAYBE SOME FROM SOME OF THE OTHER, UM, OBJECTIVE, UH, DESIGN STANDARDS THAT I REVIEWED THAT I WAS WONDERING IF WE, IF MAYBE IT WAS HERE AND I MISSED IT, OR MAYBE IF WE COULD INCLUDE IT OR WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ON IT. UM, THERE WERE SOME, UM, I READ ABOUT THESE MID-BLOCK BREAKS FOR BUILDINGS OVER 200 FEET. UM, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT IS INCLUDED IN HERE OR THAT WE COULD INCLUDE? UM, THAT IF, IF THAT'S SOMETHING THERE'S CONSENSUS ON, WE COULD, WE COULD INCLUDE SOMETHING THAT SAYS FOR DEVELOPMENTS OVER 200 SQUARE FEET, A MID A A BREAK IS REQUIRED BETWEEN BUILDINGS. I MEAN, IF THAT'S SOMETHING YOU MIGHT YEAH. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS 200 SQUARE FEET. I THINK IT WAS LIKE 200 LINEAR FEET. 200 LINEAR FEET. YEAH. YEAH. MM-HMM. IF IT'S MORE THAN 200 LINEAR FEET TO HAVE SOME SORT OF MID-BLOCK BREAK. I JUST THOUGHT THAT WAS, I SAW THAT IN ANOTHER, UM, ANOTHER, UM, MUNICIPALITY'S CODE AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS A GOOD IDEA. UM, IS THAT A CONSENSUS? THAT, AND FOR MID-BLOCK BREAK, FOR MID-BLOCK BREAK, DO YOU MEAN CHANGE IN PLANE OR IS THAT, UM, I THINK THEY HAD, UM, IT WAS LIKE, UM, UM, UH, LITTLE LIKE, UM, WHAT ARE THEY, COURTYARDS ARE WALK, THINGS LIKE THAT. WALKWAYS. YEAH. JUST, I MEAN, IT'S ESSENTIALLY REQUIRING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A BUILDING THAT'S LONGER THAN 200 FEET BECAUSE WHAT HA LIKE SO WHAT WE HAVE IS RIGHT. WHAT WE'VE DISCUSSED IS THERE'S A 30% SETBACK ON THE BUILDING. SO THIS WOULDN'T, LIKE, THIS WOULD BE IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING LONGER THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE CONTIGUOUS DEVELOPMENT LONGER THAN 200. AND THAT IF IT'S GONNA BE A CERTAIN, IS IT TWO 50 OR IS IT 200? IT SAID 200 IN THIS ONE. I THINK THIS MIGHT HAVE SANTA ROSA DESIGN STANDARDS. IT'S REALLY JUST TO BREAK UP THE MONOTONY. YEAH. YOU KNOW, TO HAVE LIKE SOME, UM, INTEREST YOU WALKING AROUND AND YEAH. I'M SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. YEAH. MM-HMM. . YEAH. I THINK THAT COULD WORK THOUGH. I WONDER IF WE'VE MAYBE ALREADY GOT IT IN ALL THESE BLANK WALL PROVISIONS. NOT NECESSARILY. OKAY. COOL. YEAH. DO IT. SO IS THAT THREE, FOUR YESES, ROGER? OKAY. UM, THE OTHER THING WAS, AND WE MAY HAVE HAD THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE, WAS, UM, BLANK WALLS ARE LIMITED TO LESS THAN 20 FEET. WAS THAT SOMEWHERE THAT WE HAD THAT OURS, WHAT WE HAVE? MM-HMM. , WE, THERE IS A LIMIT ON, [03:35:01] LET ME GET, OKAY. HOLD ON. OKAY. WAIT. IT'S VERY SPECI. IT'S IN SYNTHES DESIGN. OKAY. AND INACTIVE FRONTAGES. THANK YOU. YES. IT'S F NO MORE THAN 50 ALONG PRIMARY FACADE SHALL BE OCCUPIED BY INACTIVE FRONTAGES, BUT THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER PLACE WHERE YOU COULD MAKE IT A MURAL OR SOMETHING AND NO. OKAY. ALRIGHT. THAT FITS THEN. MM-HMM. . THANK YOU. OKAY. UM, OR I GUESS THAT'S FENCING. WHAT WAS IT? THE MURAL THING IS A IS FOR FENCING'S FENCING. YEAH. MM-HMM. . AND THAT WAS, YEAH. YEAH. IT'S, IT'S NO MORE THAN 50 FEET MAYBE OCCUPIED BY, OR SHELL BY AN INACTIVE FRONTAGE ON THE PRIMARY. SORRY. NO MORE THAN 50 FEET ALONG THE PRIMARY FACADE SHALL BE OCCUPIED BY INACTIVE FRONTAGES. OH, I, YEAH, I DON'T THINK THAT THAT, THAT'S WHAT THIS WAS TALKING ABOUT. I THINK THIS WAS JUST A BLANK LIKE YEAH. OF 20, YOU KNOW, WALL. SO WE ORIGINALLY, WHAT WE HAD MM-HMM. WAS ARTICULATION AND MASSING. MM-HMM. REQUIREMENTS THAT, AND YOU MIGHT BE LOOKING AT MIL PITA, AND THAT WAS ORIGINALLY WHAT WE HAD STARTED WITH, WITH OUR ARCHITECTURAL STUFF. MM-HMM. . AND THAT WAS KINDA WHAT GOT TOSSED OUT THE WINDOW BECAUSE IT WAS BASICALLY THE ARCHITECTS WERE LIKE, THIS IS A NO GO AND INSTEAD RECOMMENDED THE THE 30%. UM, AND, AND DEFINITELY THE POINT WAS TAKEN, TAKEN. IT WASN'T LIKE, OH, THEY JUST TOLD US TO, AND WE DID. BUT THEY PROVIDED THAT FEEDBACK. AND AS WE WERE LOOKING AT DIFFERENT MASSING BREAKS AND HOW THAT PLAYS OUT, IT, IT DOES NOT ENSURE GOOD DESIGN. AND, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU EVER CAN FOR SURE ENSURE GOOD DESIGN AND GOOD DESIGN ALSO IS SUBJECTIVE. SO IT CHANGES DEPENDING ON WHAT ERA YOU'RE IN AND WHETHER YOU'RE LOOKING BACK OR LOOKING FOR IT. IT'S VERY COMPLICATED . BUT, UM, BUT THE, THERE, IT, WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU SAY, OKAY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE, THE POP OUT EVERY 20 FEET, OR IT HAS TO BE RECESSED OR YOU HAVE TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS ORIGINALLY WHAT WE WERE LOOKING AT. AND, AND BASICALLY IT, YOU END UP WITH A LOT OF, UM, SOMETIMES CHAOTIC STRUCTURES AS OPPOSED TO HAVING SOMETHING THAT'S JUST HAS A NICE LOOKING CLEAN, WELL-BALANCED DESIGN. SO THAT WAS WHY WE WENT WITH THE 30% HAS TO BE, YOU KNOW, AND HOWEVER THAT COMES OUT, IT ALLOWS FOR THE CREATIVITY, IT GIVES SEVERAL METHODS TO ACHIEVE THAT WITH, YOU KNOW, SO GIVEN THE 30%, IT'S UNLIKELY WE'LL HAVE MASS OF LIKE, WALLS OF JUST NOTHING. RIGHT. RIGHT. YEAH. OKAY. MM-HMM. THAT'S I THINK WHAT WE ALL WANNA AVOID. YEAH. YEAH. OKAY. THAT SOUNDS LIKE THAT'S THE DEFAULT AND THAT'S GOOD. UM, LET'S SEE, THE OTHER ONE I WAS, I READ ABOUT WAS THIS, I DON'T KNOW HOW APPLICABLE THIS WOULD BE TO PETALUMA, BUT WHO KNOWS? UM, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT SCREENING FOR STRUCTURED PARKING. SO, UM, IF WE HAD STRUCTURED PARKING, WOULD THERE BE SOME SORT OF SCREENING REQUIREMENT FOR IT? SO WHAT WE WERE, SORRY. UM, WHAT WE REQUIRED, WHAT THE STRUCTURE PARKING IS THAT IT HAS TO HAVE THE SAME, UM, WHAT IS IT? HOW DO WE SAY IT? LINE 1 92 IS PARKING SCREEN. YEP. SO PARKING STRUCTURE FACING THE PRIMARY OR SECONDARY STREET FRONTAGE SHALL COMPLY WITH THE FACADE DESIGN REQUIREMENTS. SO IT'S THAT SAME, IT HAS TO HAVE OH, IT STILL TO LOOK THE WAY THE REST OF IT DOES. YEAH. OH, OKAY. GOOD. OKAY. EXCELLENT. OKAY. MM-HMM. . UM, LET'S SEE. UM, THAT'S ABOUT ALL I HAD. THE OTHER COMMENT THAT I HAD WAS, UM, I MAYBE RECOMMEND, I DON'T KNOW IF GOING FORWARD WE CAN, UM, SOLICIT INPUT FROM THE SENIOR ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON THINGS LIKE THIS. YES, FOR SURE. OKAY, THANKS. SORRY, DARREN. PERFECT. UM, SO I'LL JUST RUN DOWN MY LIST IN ORDER. PAGE SIX, LINE 1 58. IT STARTS CIRCULATION AND ACCESS. UH, YEAH. IS IT POSSIBLE, BUILDING ON DWAYNE'S PUBLIC COMMENT, IS IT POSSIBLE TO INCLUDE SOMETHING ABOUT ADJACENCY TO A MAJOR TRANSIT CENTER OR NECESSITATING CONNECTIONS? BECAUSE WE CALL OUT IN THE EARLY PART OF THIS DOCUMENT THE IMPORTANCE OF BUILDING UPON, YOU KNOW, TRANSIT ORIENTED DESIGN AND THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE IT'S MENTIONED. UM, SO PUT, YEAH, LINE 58 ON PAGE THREE. IT SAYS, YOU KNOW, NAVIGATE, EASY TO NAVIGATE BY WALKING BICY PUBLIC TRANSIT. IS THERE ANY WAY, DO YOU THINK, TO REFLECT THAT IN THE CIRCULATION ELEMENT OF, LOOK, IF YOU'RE ADJACENT THINKING OF THE CORONA DEVELOPMENTS IN PARTICULAR, IF YOU'RE ADJACENT TO A, A TRANSIT CENTER, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE CONNECTION MUCH LIKE WE DO WITH, UH, SIDEWALKS ELSEWHERE IN [03:40:01] THIS DOCUMENT. IS SOMETHING LIKE THAT POSSIBLE? WELL, UM, WHAT KIND OF CONNECTION ARE YOU THINKING LIKE BEYOND THE PEDESTRIAN BICYCLE PEDESTRIAN ACCESS? BECAUSE I MEAN, THEY BASICALLY, OH, LET ME SEE IF THERE'S SOMETHING I NEED TO ADD TO TRANSIT ACCESS. 'CAUSE SOMETIMES WHAT YOU THINK YOU WROTE ISN'T EXACTLY WHAT YOU WROTE. AND SO , YOU'RE LIKE, WELL, OF COURSE. THAT'S WHAT I LIKE. THE IDEA IS YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PEDESTRIAN AND BICYCLE WALKWAY THAT'S SPECIFIC TO THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. SO IN THEORY, THAT SHOULD TAKE YOU TO THE PUBLIC TRANSIT. BUT THEN WHETHER THERE'S SOMETHING ADDITIONAL AS NEEDED, LET ME LOOK AT IT AND THINK THAT OKAY. YEAH, I'LL JUST PLANT THAT SEED AND WE DON'T HAVE TO YEAH. GET TO IT NOW, BUT I'LL PUT THAT IN THERE. UM, PAGE EIGHT, UH, LINES 200 TO 2 0 2, UM, AND THIS IS UNDER PART E THERE LANDSCAPING. AND IT TALKS ABOUT RESIDENTIAL PARKING AREAS FOR MORE THAN FOUR CARS. AND PARKING LOTS IN COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL ZONES SHALL BE SCREENED FROM THE STREET RIGHT OF WAY THROUGH USE OF DECORATIVE WALLS, FENCES, AND OR LANDSCAPING. WOULD IT MAKE SENSE TO PUT A HEIGHT ON THAT 42 INCHES, LIKE THROUGH THE REST OF THE DOCUMENT? JUST KIND OF A SMALL CONSISTENCY POINT, UM, THERE. AND THEN I THINK MOST EVERYTHING ELSE, UM, HAS BEEN ANSWERED. YOU KNOW, A QUESTION, YOU HAD BROUGHT UP LANDSCAPING AS A BARRIER, AS A FENCING OPTION. IN MY MIND IT'S IMPLICIT THAT IF LANDSCAPING WAS USED AS A BARRIER AND FOR SOME REASON IT HAD TO BE REMOVED AND KIND OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES YOU DESCRIBED, I WOULD ASSUME THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE REPLACED WITH SOMETHING OF LIKE CHARACTER, WHETHER THAT'S AN ADDITIONAL LANDSCAPING BARRIER OR A FENCE OR SOMETHING. MM-HMM. . OKAY. SO THAT'S NOT A BIG ISSUE. RIGHT. THE IM, BECAUSE I SAW THE PEOPLE COMMENTED ON THE IMPERMANENCE OF LANDSCAPING, MY ASSUMPTION WAS, WELL, IF YOU RIP OUT THE LANDSCAPING OR IT DIES, YOU'LL HAVE TO REPLACE IT. YES. IT'S JUST HARD TO CONTROL THAT DOWN THE ROAD. SURE. AND SO THAT'S WHY IT'S, IT'S JUST A CONSIDERATION, SO. OKAY. OKAY. GOT IT. UM, AND THEN ON, UH, PAGE 16 LINES 4 56 THROUGH 4 57 ON LIGHTING, WONDERED IF WE COULD DO ANYTHING TO MAKE, UM, STRONGER ON LIGHTING ALONG CREEKS AND RIVERS. IT SAYS TO FACE AWAY FROM THE WATERWAY AND HABITAT AREAS. MM-HMM. , WE USE LUMENS AND DIRECTIONAL ANGLES, DEGREES ON SOME OF THESE OTHER. IS THERE ANY KIND OF MORE ROBUST PROTECTION TO SAY, LOOK, NOTHING. IT WOULDN'T BE 90 DEGREE, I GUESS 180 DEGREES KIND OF REACHING OVER INTO THE CREEK OR HABITAT. MM-HMM. , UH, OR IF IT'S LIKE A LUMEN MEASUREMENT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO GET SPECIFIC I THINK WOULD BE GREAT INSTEAD OF JUST FACING AWAY. SURE. UM, AND THEN, UH, YOU KNOW, THIS IS, UH, PAGE 16. I LOST LINE NUMBERS THERE. SO PAGE YEAH. SORRY. 16. YEAH, YEAH, NO, NO WORRIES. UH, NEAR THE BOTTOM. UM, AND THIS IS, I, I DON'T WANNA GET TOO LOST IN THIS, BUT, UH, SECTION 10 D THREE, IF THERE IS NO EXISTING PATHWAY UP OR DOWN THE RIVER FROM THE PROJECT SITE, THE NEW PATHWAY SHALL BE CONNECTED TO THE PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE SIDEWALK VIA A PUBLICLY A PUBLIC PATHWAY ON THE SITE. UM, AND MAYBE I MISREAD THIS BEFORE, BUT THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH THE RIVER CITY APARTMENTS, THAT NICE SALMON COLOR PET BUILDING ON PETALUMA BOULEVARD. MM-HMM. , WHERE THEY HAD HAD TO MAKE A PUBLIC ACCESSIBLE SIDEWALK THERE, BUT THERE WAS NO CONNECTION ON THE ADJACENT PARCEL. UM, AND SO YEAH, THEY FELT LIKE, I, I GUESS IF THERE'S NO CONNECTIONS THERE, DO WE WANT THAT REQUIREMENT IN THERE? SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS, THIS IS ALWAYS THE CHALLENGE OF THE WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE US HOW WE FUND PUBLIC IMPROVEMENT THROUGH DEVELOPMENT IS THAT YOU FREQUENTLY END UP WITH THE SIDEWALK THAT SEEMS LIKE IT'S NEVER GONNA GO ANYWHERE. OKAY. BECAUSE IT'S SOMETIMES CAN BE A VERY LONG TIME BEFORE THE NEIGHBORING PARCELS ARE DONE, OR BEFORE SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT FORCES A MUNICIPALITY TO ACTUALLY GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING, YOU KNOW, STREET IMPROVEMENTS OR, YOU KNOW, THEMSELVES, OR NOT FORCES, BUT, UM, CREATES THE CIRCUMSTANCES THERE. YEAH. UM, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I, AS, AS A, AS A PROFESSIONAL PLANNER, I WOULD NEVER SAY IT'S OKAY TO, TO NOT REQUIRE THOSE CONNECTIONS BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T DO IT WHEN THE PROPERTY IS BEING DEVELOPED, IT MAY NEVER HAPPEN. SO IT, THERE, IT MAY BE A LONG PERIOD OF TIME WHEN IT SEEMS LIKE THE CONNECTION [03:45:01] ISN'T THERE OR EVER GOING TO HAPPEN. BUT THE, THE IDEA IS IF YOU DON'T DO IT, THEN, THEN, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE NEIGHBORING PARCEL DEVELOPS, THEN THAT'S GONNA BE THE ONE WITH NOTHING, YOU KNOW? RIGHT. SIDEWALK NOWHERE. OKAY. NO, NO, NO. SO I DON'T WANT, YEAH, THAT, THAT MAKES TOTAL SENSE. UH, JUST GOT BROUGHT UP BY A DEVELOPER, SO I WANTED TO GET IT OUT THERE. AND THAT'S THE, A GREAT ANSWER. AND THEN, UH, ON PAGE 19, WE HAD ALREADY TALKED ABOUT ROOFTOPS. SOMETHING I NOTICED IN MILPITAS THAT I'M A HUGE FAN OF, UH, IS IN THEIR DESIGN STANDARDS, THEY TALK ABOUT GREEN PRODUCTIVE ROOF SCAPES. UH, AND NOW THIS IS A MINIMUM, THIS IS A SQUARE FOOTAGE REQUIREMENT WHERE SUDDENLY ROOFS, I THINK IT'S OVER 5,000 SQUARE FEET, HAVE TO BE GREEN ROOFS. AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT TREES AND PLANTINGS AND PHOTOVOLTAIC PANELS. THAT WOULD BE A PRETTY BIG DEPARTURE FROM WHAT WE HAVE HERE AND WOULD SEEM TO BE ADDING A LOT FOR AN AFFORDABLE PROJECT. UM, BUT YEAH, I GUESS ANYTHING WE CAN DO IN THAT VEIN TO MAKE MORE GREEN PRODUCTIVE ROOFSCAPES, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO LOOK LIKE EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE LAYING OUT, BUT I WOULD DEFINITELY SECOND THAT I'VE WRITTEN DOWN IN MY NOTES, YOU KNOW, FOR OCCUPIED ROOFS, AT LEAST 25% KIND OF PLANTERS OR VEGETATION, OR MAYBE WE THINK OF LIKE A COVER, ANOTHER COVERAGE METRIC. MM-HMM. . BUT YEAH, STRENGTHENING THAT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. AND IF WE WANT TO GO CRAZY AND REQUIRE GREEN ROOFS, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE GREAT, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S REALISTIC. SO, JUST HAD A QUESTION TO DARREN. UM, THERE'S, THERE'S A RIVER, UH, ENHANCEMENT PLAN OR RIVER, IS THAT WHAT IT'S CALLED? RIVER ENHANCEMENT? CAN WE RE JUST REFER TO THAT? BECAUSE THAT REQUIRES TRAILS AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS ON THE RIVER'S EDGE, IT SEEMS LIKE THAT SHOULD BE PART OF THE GUIDELINES. SO THERE ARE SOME STANDARDS IN THE RIVER ENHANCEMENT AND ACCESS PLAN AND THE ONES THAT ARE SHELLS ARE REQUIRED. BUT WHAT WE DID WAS WE TOOK THE THINGS THAT WERE SHOULDS IN THE RIVER ENHANCEMENT AND ACCESS PLAN BECAUSE SHOULD IS NON-BINDING SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW IT. AND WE TURN THEM INTO SHELLS. AND THAT'S WHAT'S IN THIS DOCUMENT ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE, THAT ARE SHOULDS THAT ARE NOW SHELLS IN HERE. IF THAT MAKES SENSE. SO IT'S A, IT'S, IT'S WHY THE RIVER SECTION IS, IT SEEMS A LITTLE CHOPPY IS BECAUSE THIS WAS JUST SHORING UP WHAT'S NOT A SHELL IN THE RIVER ENHANCEMENT ACCESS PLAN. BUT IN THE RIVER ENHANCEMENT PLAN UPDATE FOR THE GENERAL PLAN, IT SHOULD BE A REQUIRED ELEMENT WHEN IT YES. AND THERE, I THINK THERE IS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THE RIVER ENHANCEMENT ACCESS PLAN IS A VERY SUCCESSFUL DOCUMENT, BUT IT'S ALSO VERY OLD. AND SO THERE'S, THERE'S DEFINITELY, YOU KNOW, THE NEED TO LOOK AT IT AND DETERMINE WHETHER IT NEEDS TO GET UPDATED, SPECIFICALLY THE SHOULDS AND SHALLS . AND AS, AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND, THE USAGE FOR THE OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS, THE RIVER ENHANCEMENT SHELLS THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN THERE, AND OUR SHELLS WILL BE BINDING APPLY TO THESE PROJECTS AS WELL. THEY APPLY, YES. MM-HMM. . SO IT'S LIKE, MM-HMM. WE'RE, YES. WE'RE REFERENCING BOTH. OKAY. MM-HMM. . OKAY. WELL AT THIS POINT, MOST OF MINE HAVE BEEN COVERED. UM, THE ONE THING I WAS GOING TO ADD THAT DIDN'T, AND IT DOESN'T EVEN DIG TOO MUCH INTO, INTO ANY TEXT OR LINE CHANGES, UM, ONE THING I SAW THAT THE CITY OF SANTA BARBARA DID WITH THEIR OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS THAT I THINK MIGHT BE HELPFUL HERE, AND FEEL FREE TO TELL ME THAT IT'S, IT'S TOO MUCH FOR THIS TIME, BUT IT'S PART OF WHERE I GOT THE IDEA FOR THE, UM, FACADE BANK FROM ORIGINALLY WITH THE OVERHANGS THEY HAD FOR WHETHER IT WAS, SOME OF THIS WAS FOR COMMERCIAL VERSUS, UM, MULTIFAMILY, BUT FOR THEIR OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS, THEY HAD A FULL SUITE OF BANK OPTIONS THAT FOLKS COULD LOOK AT FOR, NOT TO LIMIT CREATIVITY, BUT TO BE ABLE TO KEEP A CERTAIN SENSE OR FEEL BASED ON LOCATION IN THE CITY. AND THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT WE CAN APPLY JUST TO ALLOW FOR NOT ONLY, NOT ONLY KIND OF GUIDE THE DESIGN TO LOOK A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE WHAT WE EXPECT HERE, BUT ALSO TO KEEP IN MIND THE DIFFERENT SEGMENTS OF THE TOWN THAT THESE PROJECTS END UP GOING INTO. SO JUST ADDED A LOT OF VARIETY. I DUNNO IF THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT YEAH. THANK YOU. I CAN SEND IT TO YOU WITH THAT. OKAY. I, I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SAYING THIS. IT'S 9 57. I THINK WE HAVE GOTTEN TO THE END OF OUR FEEDBACK [03:50:01] FOR THIS ROUND OF OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, HEATHER, FOR STICKING WITH US FOR ALL OF THIS. UM, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, I REALLY JUST WANNA ADJOURN, BUT I WILL KEEP GOING THROUGH THE AGENDA AS WE'RE SUPPOSED TO. I WILL CLOSE ITEM TWO, WE'LL NOW MOVE INTO [COMMITTEE COMMENT] COMMISSION COMMENT. I'LL INVITE COMMISSIONERS TO PRESENT TO AARON. I'LL START WITH YOU. I'LL LEAVE TREES TO ROGER. UH, FOR PBAC, WE TALKED ABOUT THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION MASTER PLAN, HELD A PUBLIC WORKSHOP. UH, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF EXCITING, UH, DEVELOPMENTS THERE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE MAP. I WOULD ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO GO ONLINE AND LOOK AT THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION MAP, SUBMIT FEEDBACK AND THE VISIONING GOALS AND POLICY DOCUMENT I THINK IS GONNA COME BEFORE PBA BEFORE TOO LONG, WHICH WILL BE GREAT. AND THEN, UH, AT OUR LAST MEETING WAS OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS. SO NOTHING NEW TO COVER. NICE. HEIDI? NO, NOTHING FROM ME. THANKS. UH, I WILL BE BRIEF. THEY, THIS IS A STATE THING, BUT THIS IS JUST AS MUCH FOR STAFF AS FOR ANYBODY WHO ENDS UP WATCHING THIS LATER. UH, THERE HAS JUST BEEN A SHUFFLING FOR LEADERSHIP IN THE ASSEMBLY. UH, THE SHORT OF IT IS THAT PRO HOUSING POLICY IS LIKELY TO EXPEDITE DRAMATICALLY THIS NEXT SESSION, ESPECIALLY AROUND TRANSIT AREAS, ESPECIALLY AROUND PARKING, UH, AND ESPECIALLY AROUND, YOU KNOW, CITY ORIENTED GROWTH WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TRAIN STATIONS. ONE OF ONE MEMBER IN PARTICULAR WAS WHO WAS APPOINTED HEAD OF THE TRANSIT COMMITTEE, UH, HAS A BIG FOCUS ON, ON TRAIN RELATED DEVELOPMENT. SO I'LL JUST PHRASE IT THAT WAY. SO WE CAN EXPECT MORE, PROBABLY MORE POLICIES LIKE SSB THREE 30 OUTTA THE NEXT SESSION. NOT LESS. IT'S FOR SOMETHING FOR ALL OF US TO KEEP IN MIND, ROGER. SO THE, THE STATE'S GONNA DESIGN THE STATE, RIGHT? I DIDN'T SAY I AGREED. I WAS JUST SAYING WHAT'S HAPPENING. THAT'S ALL. UM, THE TREE ADVISORY COMMITTEE IS WHAT I REPORT ON. UH, WE HAD A FAIRLY LENGTHY REVIEW WITH, UH, KEN EGG OUT ON, UH, ADDING TREES TO THEIR ALREADY UNDER PROCESS ROAD IMPROVEMENTS. I THINK HE ADDED A TOTAL OF NINE TREES ON SEVERAL MILES OF ROAD IMPROVEMENTS. UM, AND WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE REPLACEMENT OF TWO TREES ON KENTUCKY STREET, WHICH WERE DISEASED OR BROKEN AND, UH, AGREED ON REPLACING THEM WITH TWO SYCAMORES. UM, SO A LITTLE BIT OF PROGRESS. NICE. JESSICA? NOTHING FROM ME. ALRIGHT. UM, WITH THAT I'LL CLOSE OUT COMMISSIONER COMMENT AND I WILL OPEN STAFF [STAFF COMMENT] COMMENT AND I'D LIKE TO INVITE OLIVIA TO PROVIDE THE PLANNING MANAGER'S REPORT. THANK YOU. I WILL KEEP IT VERY BRIEF. UM, IN CASE ANYONE HADN'T NOTICED, FRIDAY IS DECEMBER AND UM, THERE ARE GOING TO BE TWO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETINGS IN DECEMBER ON THE 12TH AND ON THE 19TH THERE HAS BEEN A QUORUM, UH, CONFIRMED FOR THOSE TWO, UH, PUBLIC MEETINGS. AND THE ITEMS WILL BE, UM, BRINGING BACK THE WORKSHOP THAT WE HAD TONIGHT, THE OBJECTIVE DESIGN STANDARDS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION TO FORWARD ON A RECOMMENDATION TO COUNCIL. AND THE OTHER THING WILL BE, UH, THE FAIRGROUNDS OVERLAY. SO WE LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING THAT. AND ON THE 19TH, UM, IT WILL BE THE SPIRIT LIVING PROJECT THAT, UH, WAS LAST BEFORE THE COMMISSION, BACK IN THE SUMMER OF THIS YEAR, 2023. THAT'S IT FOR ME. THANK YOU. I'M SURE WE WILL HAVE A SPIRITED DEBATE. UH, WITH THAT, IF THERE ARE NO COMMISSIONER COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS, I ADJOURN THE MEETING. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.